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75 gallon planted aquarium

Started by Guest_frogwhacker_* , Sep 18 2011 09:04 PM

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#61 Guest_frogwhacker_*

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 11:13 AM

Your cyanobacteria is probably not sustainable. Your newly set up tank is kind of like a teenager; it's going through some phases but it'll be a normal grown up tank in the end. Just as diatoms go away after they run out of silicate, the cyanobacteria will probably go away soon, too. Of course this person disagrees entirely with me. Link: http://www.tropicalf...bacteria-23633/
Apparently cyanobacteria are an issue if they coat your plants and block out all the light. *shrugs* Meh. I just leave mine alone. Perhaps I'm too nonchalant.

I may watch it for a while and see how it does. Just to clarify, I found the discussion I was looking for. It's where Farmertodd takes Nativeplanter's advice and adds 1 ounce peroxide for every 10gallons of water for the cyanobacteria. It was black beard algae that required the dosage to be applied directly.

If it persists, I'll try the peroxide treatment, but for now I'll let it be.

I looked at my LFS and couldn't find any phos-ban or similar product so I'll go online and purchase some.

Didn't get the pictures posted last night, but will try again tonight.

Thanks.

Steve.

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#62 Guest_nativeplanter_*

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 12:10 PM

The cyanobacteria is likely the result of the phosphorus addition. P seems to really encourage the stuff. It grows really, really fast... it it were me, I'd hit it with a little peroxide sooner rather than later. I'm not sure how it will affect Cabomba though - that plant melts pretty easily. I think your other plants should be OK with it.

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#63 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 12:16 PM

I wouldn't be all that ready to blame the water. You have a surplus of nutrients at the surface of the soil with available light and little competition, and thus, you get the wonderfully green welcome-to-soil-aquarium-mat.

If it bugs you, you can do the peroxide treatment and water change the following day, now that the nutrients are in the water column. This will help determine if the issue is soil or water based.

I have a sand and peat moss 30 gallon that I set up 6 months ago, have done zero water change and am looking at how long it's taken to cycle through the green slime. It finally started dying off this week, there's been a huge reduction on the front glass, hooray. What you do not want to happen is for the bloom to go nuts on your plants, and I have been physically knocking it off the plants.

But not everyone has curiosities like I do... You may want to just make the problem go away, and the 1 oz pr 10 gallons of 3% is the way to go.

I will also add this caveat... If you have soft water (either naturally or by RO filtration), you may want to reduce the dosage concentration if your tank is dominated by plants like Najas and Ceratophyllum. It's not a problem for these plants with any reasonable amount of hardness, but once I switched to RO to maintain my water at 6.0 pH, I did notice it decimated the stuff. This mainly meant a follow up water change, and it did provoke grown among my Val (kind of like a prairie fire / prescribed burn). So this may or may not be viewed as a problem

Todd

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#64 Guest_nativeplanter_*

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 12:37 PM

I wouldn't be all that ready to blame the water. You have a surplus of nutrients at the surface of the soil with available light and little competition, and thus, you get the wonderfully green welcome-to-soil-aquarium-mat.

This is quite possibly the case, but I was under the impression that there wasn't a problem until tap water was used?

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#65 Guest_frogwhacker_*

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 01:52 PM

Before the use of water from a municipal source, there was a little bit on the sand, maybe the size of a quarter dollar, that had been there for a couple of weeks and not really grown much. After using the municipal water with P. added, the water turned green for a few days, I did a few water changes and added the filter, and then when the water cleared up the cyanobacteria went nuts. It's attacking my Cabomba in a bad way. I've tried vacuuming it off, but much of it holds tight.

I don't have any way of testing the P. in my water, but the PH is back down to almost 6 so I'm assuming that my cistern is almost back to pure rainwater again. It looks like my best solution may be to do a water change while sucking up as much cyano. as I can, then add the peroxide, and do another water change tomorrow. The Cabomba is the plant that I was the most concerned about too, but I'm thinking that if the peroxide doesn't get it, then the cyanobacteria will. I may be at a point where I've got nothing to lose.

I'll probably go ahead and try this and skip the pictures tonight. Thank Y'all much for the replies. I appreciate it greatly.

Steve.

Update; Good news. This time I was able to suck nearly all of the cyano off the plants. I just took the flare off the end of my vacuum wand. :roll:

That provided enough suction. It even sucked it off the rock. I've been trying to do that for weeks. I'll hold off on the peroxide for a while now and just monitor the situation.

Edited by frogwhacker, 01 December 2011 - 02:19 PM.

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#66 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 03:49 PM

I will also add this caveat... If you have soft water (either naturally or by RO filtration), you may want to reduce the dosage concentration if your tank is dominated by plants like Najas and Ceratophyllum. It's not a problem for these plants with any reasonable amount of hardness, but once I switched to RO to maintain my water at 6.0 pH, I did notice it decimated the stuff. This mainly meant a follow up water change, and it did provoke grown among my Val (kind of like a prairie fire / prescribed burn). So this may or may not be viewed as a problem

Your ceratophyllum grew in RO water at pH 6? Wow. That's kind of intense. My ceratophyllum demersum would coat itself with lime to a ridiculous degree in my DH 17, pH 7.5 water, and when I tried to switch it over to DH 0 water it resented me so much that it gave up on life. I'm surprised yours survived in RO water at all; one would think it wouldn't have enough minerals to make its lime coat.

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#67 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 04:31 PM

This is quite possibly the case, but I was under the impression that there wasn't a problem until tap water was used?

I missed this detail when reading back. Sorry.

Todd

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#68 Guest_frogwhacker_*

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 03:00 AM

I finally decided to get some pictures of this set up although it's not looking what I hope is its best yet. I collected some Eleocharis acicularis, Ludwigia palustris, and Sagittaria subulata. I also purchased some S. subulata, and Cabomba caroliniana. The S. subulata that I purchased seems to have taken off a lot better than what I collected. It and the E. acicularis died back some, but are starting to make a come back.

Just behind and below the Sagittaria subulata in this shot is the stream bed. The flow starts from the far right in the far corner. It then comes diagonal under the log toward the front until there is only enough distance for the S. subulata to grow between the stream bed and the front glass. Then it makes a right hand turn and ends up at the back corner on the far left.

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This is looking up stream. You can see 3 bigeye chubs in the stream bed enjoying the current. The second spray bar is hidden under the cave. There is another spray bar in a cave on upstream, but I can't get a picture of it. This second spray bar pushes the water the longest distance, so I drilled larger holes in that one. On both spray bars, I drilled larger holes toward the middle and smaller ones toward the outside to better direct the flow.

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Here's a closer shot of the cave where the second spray bar is hidden. I drop the frozen food just over top this one so that it gets sucked into the cave and then comes rocketing out. I love watching the fish catch the food on the fly.

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Another shot looking upstream. Nativeplanter, you were right. The S. subulata is growing into my stream bed. I'll have to do some weeding eventually.

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Here I have a log(driftwood) laying across the stream bed. The bigeye chubs and some of the darters like to sit in the current under the log. Just a sunfish there in this one though. If he were to drop down just a half inch more he'd get a turbo boost downstream in the current. You can barely see the rainbow darter down stream of him in the stronger current behind some S. subulata.

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This one is not in focus, but it shows my rainbow darter and a bigeye chub enjoying the current on top the cave. The first spraybar upstream pushes a milder flow over the second cave that these two are sitting on.

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For size reference, the photogenic Lepomis in some of the shots is almost 3' long.

Well, it's not necessarily beautiful, but it is entertaining to watch the action. I hope this gives some idea of how it's laid out. It seems like I just couldn't get the camera in the right position to show it well.
Thank Y'all very much for all the help on this. I'm sure I'll have more questions soon enough.
Steve.
Edit: Please correct me if it appears that I'm wrong on the identification of any of these plants. I'm naming the ones that I collected as I believed them to be when I collected. I'm trying to learn more about them, but I can definitely make mistakes. Thanks.

Edited by frogwhacker, 02 December 2011 - 03:23 AM.

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#69 Guest_NVCichlids_*

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 09:43 AM

That idea is awesome! Definately like the looks! I need to look into what kind of permits might be needed to collect plants as I need some for my tank. This is truely beautiful!.

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#70 Guest_nativeplanter_*

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 10:39 AM

Now that is a really, really nice tank. Good plant growth, very nice arrangement. It'll look fantastic when the greenwater gets under control.

I think your Eleocharis may not be acicularis. E.acicularis is rather fine and wispy; yours looks more robust. I'm thinking maybe E.obtusa, E.ovata, or E.palustris, or maybe other. The only way to really know would be to grow some emergent specimens until they flower. Then the flowers and seeds need to be examined under a dissecting scope. If you want to do this when it warms up, I'd be happy to take a look at it if you send me a few flower and seed heads.

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#71 Guest_frogwhacker_*

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 10:40 AM

That idea is awesome! Definately like the looks! I need to look into what kind of permits might be needed to collect plants as I need some for my tank. This is truely beautiful!.

Thank you for the complements. I would definitely recommend plant collecting. This was my first year for collecting plants for aquariums and I enjoyed it so much that I was actually disappointed when I finally filled up my 3 planted tanks. I ended up enjoying it as much as collecting fish. My catch success rate was always better with plants too. They hold still much better than the fish do, but like the fish, it's so much fun to see the plants in their natural settings. Thanks again.

Steve.

Edited by frogwhacker, 02 December 2011 - 10:56 AM.

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#72 Guest_frogwhacker_*

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 10:53 AM

Now that is a really, really nice tank. Good plant growth, very nice arrangement. It'll look fantastic when the greenwater gets under control.

I think your Eleocharis may not be acicularis. E.acicularis is rather fine and wispy; yours looks more robust. I'm thinking maybe E.obtusa, E.ovata, or E.palustris, or maybe other. The only way to really know would be to grow some emergent specimens until they flower. Then the flowers and seeds need to be examined under a dissecting scope. If you want to do this when it warms up, I'd be happy to take a look at it if you send me a few flower and seed heads.

Thank you very much. I have a hard time overlooking some of it's current problems though. I guess I just need to be patient.
I was thinking that the Eleocharis was acicularis when I collected it because of it's height, but it has grown so much taller in my tank than it was outside that it really confused me. Your note on the robustness of it confirms my suspicions. It has grown so tall in fact that I may have some of it that's emergent within a week or two. Do you think it would flower inside? That would be really sweet.
Thanks again for the complements.

Steve.

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#73 Guest_Usil_*

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 11:05 AM

I love that tank. It provides an inspiration for me to go out collecting plants. I used to do that when I was younger. I remember how excited I got when I found a perfect specimen. You are right, just as much fun as collecting fish.

On the green water - why is it green? Did you get a dose when you transferred the native plants into the tank? Or did you use pond water for the tank? Or does it just look green because of all the plants?

Usil

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#74 Guest_nativeplanter_*

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 11:09 AM

Thank you very much. I have a hard time overlooking some of it's current problems though. I guess I just need to be patient.
I was thinking that the Eleocharis was acicularis when I collected it because of it's height, but it has grown so much taller in my tank than it was outside that it really confused me. Your note on the robustness of it confirms my suspicions. It has grown so tall in fact that I may have some of it that's emergent within a week or two. Do you think it would flower inside? That would be really sweet.
Thanks again for the complements.

Steve.

All plants that usually grow emergent grow taller when they are submerged, and many are a bit wispier when submerged as well. E. acicularis can get to oh, maybe 6" or so when submerged. Others would be taller. You could get it to flower inside if it has enough light. I'm not sure if Eleocharis species are photosensitive or not (meaning they require a certain daylength to flower). But if they are, they would likely be long-day as opposed to short-day, since they flower in mid-summer.

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#75 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 11:53 AM

Beautiful tank! It helps to see the pictures.

Now I'm curious... Did you change the lighting at all prior to the bloom?

If you know you have phosphorus-free water now, I'd hit it with peroxide and crash that garbage and get it out of there with a 50% or 75% water change.

Todd

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#76 Guest_frogwhacker_*

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 12:24 PM

Beautiful tank! It helps to see the pictures.

Now I'm curious... Did you change the lighting at all prior to the bloom?

If you know you have phosphorus-free water now, I'd hit it with peroxide and crash that garbage and get it out of there with a 50% or 75% water change.

Todd

The lighting has been the same since I set the tank up. I did a few 10% water changes yesterday. Complete eradication sounds like a good idea to me, but I may wait until I get some Phos-ban or Phos-zorb as I can't be completely sure all the phosphorus is gone. I only know that it has to be diluted quite a bit now with as much rain that has went into my cistern since I had to haul water. The PH is getting close to 6 again so I know it's almost there. I am a little hesitant to do huge water changes on my planted tanks when I'm using pure rainwater though. My cistern water is completely soft with a PH of 6 or less. I let the rocks and such bring the PH and hardness in the tank water up slowly. After a while my planted tanks end up with some degree of hardness and a PH of around 7.6. I do notice slower plant growth after a major water change and I'm a little concerned that dropping the PH from 7.6 to less than 6 that quickly might not be good for the plants. I'm certainly not real knowledgeable on this though so please give me your thoughts. I may be concerned about it for nothing. Thanks.

I was hoping my pictures wouldn't be as confusing as my explanations of it. Thanks for the complements.

Steve.

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#77 Guest_frogwhacker_*

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 12:41 PM

I love that tank. It provides an inspiration for me to go out collecting plants. I used to do that when I was younger. I remember how excited I got when I found a perfect specimen. You are right, just as much fun as collecting fish.

On the green water - why is it green? Did you get a dose when you transferred the native plants into the tank? Or did you use pond water for the tank? Or does it just look green because of all the plants?

Usil

The green water is the result of an algae bloom that's discussed in posts 52-65 of this discussion. It's actually recovering quite well from that. It doesn't look nearly as bad as the pictures show. Some of what is seen in the photos may be from the reflection from all the plants or the fact that I just gave the back glass to the algae. I don't use the back glass for viewing so I just let the algae have it. It may also be from the slower shutter speed I was using and the fact that I didn't adjust my white balance and I haven't calibrated the monitor that I do pic.s on for several years as I haven't been in the photo business for a while now. Whatever it may be, it doesn't really look as green as the photos show. I was running a wide open aperture to, so the shallow plain of focus and slow shutter speed caused much to look blurry. Combined with all the green in the tank, that may be the culprit. The last two shots I used a flash, so the water doesn't look as bad, but I did get the unwanted glare.

You've probably got quite a selection of plants in Texas you can use for your aquarium. To begin with, I thought I would be quite limited living this far north, but once I got out looking I was surprised at what I found. Thanks for the complements.

Edited by frogwhacker, 02 December 2011 - 12:48 PM.

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#78 Guest_Usil_*

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 12:59 PM

Sorry, I did not go back to see that part of the thread on the green water.

Honestly, I don't know what water plants grows in Texas. I live in the northern part near Ft. Worth so won't have the tropical warm water stuff here. I plan on looking into this and hopefully next spring I will venture out to see what I can find.

Usil

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#79 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 01:30 PM

I'd figure out what works with what I give it, and need to do to maintain the overall aesthetic, and go with that

I'm kind of an a-hole that way to my organisms lol. But once I determine that the organism doesn't work with the constraints I give it, I don't bother them any more either.

That said, a temporary drop to 6 isn't the end of the world. You could also get some carbonate sand (like the cichlid sand) and incorporate it into your sandbed, or make bags of it that you hide in the back behind the plants. When I had my shop, I inherited a bunch of dead coral heads and put them in my sump of the system to build a stronger buffer capacity. It worked really well.

How well does the cistern work for you? You can get a decent 3 stage RO filter for $100. I'm going to look into single cartridge solutions too, that can get you down in price and maybe not take out the carbonate. This is how I filter my water if I'm not trying to soften it too much, but I don't have horrible phosphate from the tap. I'm using a lead and arsenic filter now, I can't remember if that resin will pull phosphorus too. Not seeing anything immediately apparent online either (what a google mess!).

Simplify... This sounds like a hassle, and it should be fun

Todd

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#80 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 03 December 2011 - 10:02 AM

I was running a wide open aperture to, so the shallow plain of focus and slow shutter speed caused much to look blurry.

Th combination of the depth of field and the angled stream bed and your photo selection makes the tank look even larger... I rather like the aesthetic.

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin