contemplating an outside pond here in central fl. to keep local fish especially flagfish, and a divided area for some small turtles such as common musk turtles, and a nice bench area to relax, any ideas?
outside pond
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, Oct 31 2011 08:20 AM
52 replies to this topic
#2
Guest_Yeahson421_*
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Posted 31 October 2011 - 08:44 AM
If you're going to have turtles you'll need good circulation and filtration. You'll also need to be sure you have a turtle proof wall around (And partially under the ground) the pond. You probably would also have to worry about predators, so make sure you have plenty of cover. Here's a good example:
#4
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Posted 31 October 2011 - 09:41 AM
When I made my pond, I dug it myself using a shovel and a wheelbarrow. (Life lesson: Rent a backhoe.) Then I lined it using the free leftover roof lining from a roofer friend who was tearing out a leaky roof to install a new one. It was like an inch thick of rubber. We layed it out on the lawn and cut out a big piece for the pond. That saved us a lot of money on pond liner.
We built up the sides of the pond using wood, making it a good two or three feet above the ground and with a flat horizontal top to sit on. The liner went all the way up the sides, so you can sit on the side and be right next to the water. The pond filter you can make yourself out of a garbage can, a pump, and pounds of lava rock. Here's an example design: http://www.woodworke...pond-filler.gif
I recommend you put the lava rock inside net bags, that way you can lift them out, rinse them off, and put them back in.
There are some people online who design the pond to slope downward so the middle is the deepest. Then the intake for the filter is in the middle, and there's a mechanical prefiltration region of the filter so the gunk that would normally accumulate at the bottom of the pond is conveniently stuck in the prefilter box at the side of the pond, which you can open and clean. That seemed like a really nice design.
Oh, make sure the pond is deep. You want it to be at least four feet deep. The deeper the deepest point is, the better. And the majority of the sides should be as described above, sheer vertical walls, not sloping, so that predators can't stand there and fish. Then you can have one region sloping up so that the turtles can climb out. That way when a predator like a raccoon does stand there in the shallows and wave their paws around looking for food, the fish can swim into the deeper part of the pond to escape and hide. I'm a fish person, not a turtle person, so this part you might want to modify as people give you more specific advice for turtles. But for fish you want sheer vertical sides to discourage wading birds. You can build up shallow regions away from the shore by submerging platforms and pots of plants. My favorite thing is to submerge an upside down egg crate box. Then you can stand a ceramic pot on the egg crate to keep it sunk, for example a terra cotta pot full of dirt and planted with a water lily. Baby fish can swim into the egg crate and hide from larger predatory fish. Jordanella floridae are a nippy species, too, so giving them more places to hide from one another would be a good idea.
Um, I think that's everything. I remember reading somewhere that baby turtles are a little bit piscivorous, so you might want to have a nice large population of flagfish going before the baby turtles get introduced.
Edit: Oh yes, and make the waterfall before you turn the filter on. Use silicone to glue the rocks used in the waterfall together. We just stacked our rocks and it was a bit of an issue, because sometimes they would fall down. And once it's wet, the silicone you would normally use to affix a rock to another rock doesn't work so well anymore.
We built up the sides of the pond using wood, making it a good two or three feet above the ground and with a flat horizontal top to sit on. The liner went all the way up the sides, so you can sit on the side and be right next to the water. The pond filter you can make yourself out of a garbage can, a pump, and pounds of lava rock. Here's an example design: http://www.woodworke...pond-filler.gif
I recommend you put the lava rock inside net bags, that way you can lift them out, rinse them off, and put them back in.
There are some people online who design the pond to slope downward so the middle is the deepest. Then the intake for the filter is in the middle, and there's a mechanical prefiltration region of the filter so the gunk that would normally accumulate at the bottom of the pond is conveniently stuck in the prefilter box at the side of the pond, which you can open and clean. That seemed like a really nice design.
Oh, make sure the pond is deep. You want it to be at least four feet deep. The deeper the deepest point is, the better. And the majority of the sides should be as described above, sheer vertical walls, not sloping, so that predators can't stand there and fish. Then you can have one region sloping up so that the turtles can climb out. That way when a predator like a raccoon does stand there in the shallows and wave their paws around looking for food, the fish can swim into the deeper part of the pond to escape and hide. I'm a fish person, not a turtle person, so this part you might want to modify as people give you more specific advice for turtles. But for fish you want sheer vertical sides to discourage wading birds. You can build up shallow regions away from the shore by submerging platforms and pots of plants. My favorite thing is to submerge an upside down egg crate box. Then you can stand a ceramic pot on the egg crate to keep it sunk, for example a terra cotta pot full of dirt and planted with a water lily. Baby fish can swim into the egg crate and hide from larger predatory fish. Jordanella floridae are a nippy species, too, so giving them more places to hide from one another would be a good idea.
Um, I think that's everything. I remember reading somewhere that baby turtles are a little bit piscivorous, so you might want to have a nice large population of flagfish going before the baby turtles get introduced.
Edit: Oh yes, and make the waterfall before you turn the filter on. Use silicone to glue the rocks used in the waterfall together. We just stacked our rocks and it was a bit of an issue, because sometimes they would fall down. And once it's wet, the silicone you would normally use to affix a rock to another rock doesn't work so well anymore.
Edited by EricaWieser, 31 October 2011 - 09:47 AM.
#5
Michael Wolfe
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Posted 31 October 2011 - 09:55 AM
My suggestion... forget about the turtles... turtles and fish are not an easy combination... and as for breeding flags... Ihave been able to do that with minimal effort in a set up like this... My backyard stock tanks
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin
#6
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Posted 31 October 2011 - 10:35 AM
This is very true. If your intention, Don212, is just to breed Jordanella floridae, then there are alternative ways to do it that are less work than digging a pond. Flagfish breed easily in a backyard tub and in the home aquarium. You just add a spawning mop and take it out after they lay eggs on it.My suggestion... forget about the turtles... turtles and fish are not an easy combination... and as for breeding flags... Ihave been able to do that with minimal effort in a set up like this... My backyard stock tanks
This is a spawning mop: http://www.aquarticl...awning_Mop.html
Here is spawning advice: http://aquafind.com/...cles/jordan.php
Edited by EricaWieser, 31 October 2011 - 10:41 AM.
#7
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Posted 31 October 2011 - 10:51 AM
I was thinking about it, and a pond would put a fluidized bed filter to good use. Example DIY design: http://w3page.com/fi...if/fbfilter.gif
It's just basically getting water to flow up through the bottom of a bed of sand, but not fast enough to make the sand pop up out of the filter chamber.
Info: http://www.bioconlabs.com/abtqs.html
It's just basically getting water to flow up through the bottom of a bed of sand, but not fast enough to make the sand pop up out of the filter chamber.
Info: http://www.bioconlabs.com/abtqs.html
Edited by EricaWieser, 31 October 2011 - 10:54 AM.
#8
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Posted 31 October 2011 - 01:24 PM
Loved the video. When I lived in Utah and much younger with a good back, I dug my pond in the back yard about 3 feet deep with a shovel and about 30 feet in diameter which was relatively easy because of the loose soil. I piled the dirt from the pond as land scaping hills at one end and planted plants there along with adding rocks and stone. I used a simple plastic liner to keep costs down and filled it up using flat stone all around the edge. Planted a weeping mulberry close by. It lasted all year and I redid the liner the next spring. Sold the house before I could do it all right with concrete but loved the pond and the family would sit around in the evenings and watch the fish or dangle our legs in the water. Local frogs took up residence there and that was neat too for all the frog sounds in the evening.
Usil
Usil
Edited by Usil, 31 October 2011 - 01:26 PM.
#9
Michael Wolfe
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Posted 31 October 2011 - 01:49 PM
This is very true. If your intention, Don212, is just to breed Jordanella floridae, then there are alternative ways to do it that are less work than digging a pond. Flagfish breed easily in a backyard tub and in the home aquarium. You just add a spawning mop and take it out after they lay eggs on it.
Just to be clear, my definition of less effort is even less than that... the pond as you see it sitting there with a hardy water lilly or two... no filter... no feeding... just add fish (in small numbers)... in the fall remove the fish (in large numbers). And this is not a theory... this is what I pulled out just last weekend...
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin
#10
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Posted 31 October 2011 - 09:27 PM
wow, getting alot of good suggestions, i think i would like to dig a small pond, side it with local cut cypress boards, with overhanging ledges, and underwater hiding places , line it with a sheet plastic pool liner,i like the homemade lava rock filter idea, i want a small waterfall, the turtle and fish areas would be barred and screened for separation, i wonder if i really need 4 ft deep here in fl? what is optimum depth for flagfish? need a small enclosed land area on the turtle side, need overhead screening because my yard is under messy oaks and sweetgums, also screening would discourage visiting wading birds, want to make the whole thing compact, for my small yard, and small budget, i want to keep a few flagfish, maybe some topminnows, and blue fin killies, and a couple or three small common musk turtles, it needs to be attractive and relaxing Thanks everyone.
#11
Guest_Usil_*
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Posted 01 November 2011 - 11:14 AM
A small pond is neat for raising fish but it is even better for people. Restive, peaceful and provides a nice habitat for anything local that might like it too. Can't go wrong for any reason you want one and worth the effort.
Usil
Usil
#12
Michael Wolfe
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Posted 01 November 2011 - 01:02 PM
...i wonder if i really need 4 ft deep here in fl? what is optimum depth for flagfish?
...i want to keep a few flagfish, maybe some topminnows, and blue fin killies,...
I dont think you need that much depth... I mean in the wild some of the flagfish and killies live in ditches that are only a foot deep... but... I have found that one of the benefits of the stock tanks and the waterlily combination is that the water stays cooler down at the bottom of the tank, which allows the fish to find a comfortable level. And that is important in my situation wehere the stock tanks are sitting in the sun... but can also be a problem in florida I would imagine. So depth maybe good for you that way as well.
And as far as topminnows, I have also raised these a couple of seasons in the stock tanks... not as prolific as the flags, but maybe that was me... I need to get some and try again next summer.
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin
#13
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Posted 01 November 2011 - 02:06 PM
The reason why I dug my pond so deep was because there are a lot of animals in the area that like to eat people's fish if the pond is too shallow and the fish can't escape. Not all of it was 4 ft; that's just what the deepest point was. That way the fish have somewhere to hide on those few days a year when a predator really capable of emptying your pond wanders by.i wonder if i really need 4 ft deep here in fl? what is optimum depth for flagfish?
As to flagfish and what depth they like to spawn in, if you read this article you'll see that their spawning method changes based upon the depth of the water they're spawning in. Article: http://aquafind.com/...cles/jordan.php You can have regions that are shallower than the deepest point if you want; I was just saying you might want to give your fish a deeper region to hide in when they're scared and there's a heron perching on the edge of the pond looking down at them.
Edited by EricaWieser, 01 November 2011 - 02:07 PM.
#15
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Posted 01 November 2011 - 04:06 PM
I would think a 4 foot section in the middle would be sufficient for hiding from predators. My depth design was deep enough where I could sit on the bank and dangle my legs and feet in it without touching bottom. Rocks can make this a varied depth along the edges.
Usil
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#17
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Posted 02 November 2011 - 08:36 PM
yeah reading that article it seems that the optimum depth if you are not pulling out the eggs is shallow weedy water so the fry can quickly get to the surface but maybe nearby deeper water for security and to give the female some breathing space or at least that's how i interpret it,The reason why I dug my pond so deep was because there are a lot of animals in the area that like to eat people's fish if the pond is too shallow and the fish can't escape. Not all of it was 4 ft; that's just what the deepest point was. That way the fish have somewhere to hide on those few days a year when a predator really capable of emptying your pond wanders by.
As to flagfish and what depth they like to spawn in, if you read this article you'll see that their spawning method changes based upon the depth of the water they're spawning in. Article: http://aquafind.com/...cles/jordan.php You can have regions that are shallower than the deepest point if you want; I was just saying you might want to give your fish a deeper region to hide in when they're scared and there's a heron perching on the edge of the pond looking down at them.
#18
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Posted 02 November 2011 - 08:53 PM
AS to what size to make the pond i guess it depends on the needs of the fish and turtles for territory, the size needed for security, and for a stable pond biologically and thermally, here in fl a small pool of water could get terribly hot, the idea of making the pond one depth, then raising shelves up on crates seems like a great solution, i'm thinking a central shallow planted shelf surrounded by a deeper moat, also have to allow for a nice aesthetic design, ck price of flexible roofing vs pond linerThe reason why I dug my pond so deep was because there are a lot of animals in the area that like to eat people's fish if the pond is too shallow and the fish can't escape. Not all of it was 4 ft; that's just what the deepest point was. That way the fish have somewhere to hide on those few days a year when a predator really capable of emptying your pond wanders by.
As to flagfish and what depth they like to spawn in, if you read this article you'll see that their spawning method changes based upon the depth of the water they're spawning in. Article: http://aquafind.com/...cles/jordan.php You can have regions that are shallower than the deepest point if you want; I was just saying you might want to give your fish a deeper region to hide in when they're scared and there's a heron perching on the edge of the pond looking down at them.
#19
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Posted 02 November 2011 - 09:11 PM
There are many options, actually. I just went with roof liner because it was available to me. You could also use a liner sheet designed for a pond, a prefabricated plastic tub, or a liquid rubber pond sealant.price of flexible roofing vs pond liner
This is kind of neat and I just learned about it today; you can bury cinder blocks and coat them in liquid rubber, and it works to keep the water in.
And the plastic tubs are a lot less expensive than I thought they were. Here's the topic discussion where az9 mentioned buying a tank from Rural King: http://forum.nanfa.o...ng/page__st__20
Edited by EricaWieser, 02 November 2011 - 09:17 PM.
#20
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Posted 02 November 2011 - 09:39 PM
One idea I had is what if it was a 2pond system connected by a waterfall. There would be a sheer cliff and waterfall to create an upper pond and lower pond. The upper pond could be for the fish while the lower pond for the turtles. You could put any extra fish from the upper pond into the lower pond so it won't be a problem if/when they get eaten because those in the upper pond will continue breeding.
Edited by Yeahson421, 02 November 2011 - 09:39 PM.
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