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outside pond

Started by Guest_don212_* , Oct 31 2011 08:20 AM

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#21 Guest_don212_*

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Posted 13 November 2011 - 07:25 PM

well, i'm now thinking a simple 2ft deep, 4ft wide, 6'6" long inground pond framed with wood, lined with a pond liner, divided with a 4 ft section for fish, 30" for turtles, a hand fabricated scimmer, and bottom drain, 600 gpm submerged pump, waterfall/filter consructed from cat litter container, running to 3ft long 1ft wide gravel stream into turtle side of pond,1ft wide by 30" in long shelf in middle of fish area with plants for spawning, supported by milk crates, floating 1ft diameter island in turtle side , screen divider, basking and land area where stream enters pond, i want to plant a few irises on stream bank, and some lilies in pond . i will buy a pump, and start improvising the skimmer, bottom drain, and waterfall, and test them in myswimming pool before digging holes. Iam wondering if i need to use a rubber pond liner, or can i use something cheaper and still get good results, and what filter medium can help eliminate algae , big problem even in shade in fl. do i need a uv sanitizer? any comments?

#22 Guest_frogwhacker_*

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Posted 13 November 2011 - 08:14 PM

I've never done an outside yard pond like this, so I don't have anything to offer there, but I do use a UV for my 150 gallon aquarium and I've never had any algae in it. The UV that I use is actually one that is for a small pond. I've had it going since I set the tank up in early June of this year and it gets outside light from two directions, plus the tank sets directly under the main light fixture of the room. It gets enough light to keep hornwort alive anyway, so I would think algae should be able to grow in it, but so far, so good.

Steve.

#23 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 13 November 2011 - 10:40 PM

It would be helpful if you drew a picture of what you're imagining for your pond. I'm trying to get an idea just from your words, but an image would be easier to visualize.

No, you don't need a rubber pond liner. If you read post #19 that I wrote up above, I listed several alternatives.

As to algae, if you plant live aquatic plants then they will outcompete the algae for nutrients. You can buy a pot, put something in it that would grow a plant (for example kitty litter, or possibly soil topped with gravel) and then submerge the pot underwater in the pond. That's what a lot of people do with pond lilies and cattails.

#24 Guest_nativeplanter_*

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Posted 14 November 2011 - 01:08 PM

I'm no herpetologist, but I think the turtles you are likely to get in Florida are going to be much, much larger than can be supported by your plan. Besides, unless you have some sort of barrier, they are just as likely to waddle into the fish part of the pond.

#25 Guest_don212_*

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Posted 14 November 2011 - 04:01 PM

I'm no herpetologist, but I think the turtles you are likely to get in Florida are going to be much, much larger than can be supported by your plan. Besides, unless you have some sort of barrier, they are just as likely to waddle into the fish part of the pond.

thanks for your concern, here in fl, we have a large variety of turtles, including some huge ones, but iam interested in the common musk which is only 5" , however they are known to be prodigous climbers, so i will need some creative barriers, my yard has a hurricane fence around it, that i hope will continue to keep out gators and snappers from the nearby lake, i'm sure i'll get some snakes and frogs though, raccoons, and maybe herons or cranes,i'm also concerned about sqirrels drowning, wonder how you protect those silly things without giving birds and coons a free meal?

#26 Guest_gerald_*

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Posted 14 November 2011 - 05:40 PM

I think you could successfully keep/breed flagfish with musk or mud turtles. They are probably the easiest turtles to keep, and rarely attack healthy fish as long as you're feeding them well. (Yes they will finish off sick/dying fish). They dont come out of water to bask as much as sliders, cooters, painteds do. They're more likley to bask in shallow warm water. Of course females must come out in summer to lay eggs. Two warnings: 1) they are surprisingly good climbers, and 2) males (thicker tail) may fight.

#27 Guest_don212_*

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Posted 15 November 2011 - 08:08 AM

I think you could successfully keep/breed flagfish with musk or mud turtles. They are probably the easiest turtles to keep, and rarely attack healthy fish as long as you're feeding them well. (Yes they will finish off sick/dying fish). They dont come out of water to bask as much as sliders, cooters, painteds do. They're more likley to bask in shallow warm water. Of course females must come out in summer to lay eggs. Two warnings: 1) they are surprisingly good climbers, and 2) males (thicker tail) may fight.

thanks,though they are pretty innocuous i want to separate them so they don't mess up the fish habitat, and so i there is a smaller area for them to escape from, it's getting to be exciting in my head, i am trying to figure out what size pump i need, my pond will be @360 gallons, and i want to cycle it once /hr plus a small lift for the waterfall, but a book i got says i need 100g/p/h for each horizontal inch of waterfall, thats double the size at least, doesnt make sense to me.

#28 Guest_gerald_*

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Posted 15 November 2011 - 09:57 AM

A pump's flow rate (gal/hr or similar) doesnt tell you anything about its Hydraulic Head pressure (how far it can lift water). Some mfrs give a graph showing head on the X-axis and flow on the y-axis so you can see how much flow you'll have at any chosen height. It may be on their website if it's not on the product's box. Many aquarium pumps are built for high flow but have very little head pressure. Aquatic Ecosystems has head/flow graphs for most of the pumps they sell.

#29 Guest_don212_*

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 10:26 PM

well, i am starting to work on my pond project, i bought a 600gph pump for $45 at hd with 3/4 corrugated tubing, connected it to a catlitter box with a 5inch slot cut accross the top for a waterfall, filled with lava rocks from an undergravel aquarium filter, this will be my bio filter, a sheet of mesh filter on top will be my mechanical filter, the pump came with a mesh prefilter and a 2 way outlet to which i also connected a 1/4 in line and a low volume micro sprinkler, i will reuse a shed deck made of pressure treated wood for the pond walls and shelf, and 20 mm pvc liner, i will install a small uv clarifier prior to the waterfall filter to control algae, and run a 1 ft wide brook with river stone( was advised that uncovered lava stone collects seeds and grows into a giant mess)for additional bio filtering about 3 ft into the pond, with a small shallow inlet for the turtles to bask in. i found a water garden store owner willing to advise me, he tells me a skimmer for this size pond would be overkill, so that's one thing i don't need to worry about he likes to use concrete block without mortar filled with sand,( no rotting) for pond walls, but i think i'll stick with wood, got the wood, know it won't fall over.

#30 Guest_mywan_*

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 01:41 AM

Due to the high bioload as a result of how messy turtles can be I would consider extending the 30" lower turtle area a bit for a very shallow area for growing a thicket of marsh plants. Juncus effusus is an ideal emergent plant with really good filtering abilities and hardy against winter and turtle inavasions, though irises, cattails, and other emergent plants can also be used. This should greatly increase the absorption of fertilizer from both turtles and fish before being circulated back through the waterfall. Of course water lilies and such in the main body of water helps also, like Michael Wolfe's setup in his pictures, but having all the water funneled through a dense plant region is more effective at higher bioloads and reduces demands on the filter. Basically a tiny wetland just prior to entering the intake pickup for the waterfall pump that filter debris before entering the intake and remove fertilizer and other contaminants from the water. Is is a far more complete filtration process that any biofilter you can buy as long as you periodically remove aged plant matter.

I would like to design a larger outdoor system but this summer put me way behind on my large indoor setup which will also play a role in indoor environmental control, as well as a smaller modular system designed for aquariums. I plan on an indoor system that's not too much smaller than the outdoor system you described, and larger if you include the outside reservoir for it.

Edited by mywan, 01 December 2011 - 01:42 AM.

#31 Guest_don212_*

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 08:28 AM

Due to the high bioload as a result of how messy turtles can be I would consider extending the 30" lower turtle area a bit for a very shallow area for growing a thicket of marsh plants. Juncus effusus is an ideal emergent plant with really good filtering abilities and hardy against winter and turtle inavasions, though irises, cattails, and other emergent plants can also be used. This should greatly increase the absorption of fertilizer from both turtles and fish before being circulated back through the waterfall. Of course water lilies and such in the main body of water helps also, like Michael Wolfe's setup in his pictures, but having all the water funneled through a dense plant region is more effective at higher bioloads and reduces demands on the filter. Basically a tiny wetland just prior to entering the intake pickup for the waterfall pump that filter debris before entering the intake and remove fertilizer and other contaminants from the water. Is is a far more complete filtration process that any biofilter you can buy as long as you periodically remove aged plant matter.

I would like to design a larger outdoor system but this summer put me way behind on my large indoor setup which will also play a role in indoor environmental control, as well as a smaller modular system designed for aquariums. I plan on an indoor system that's not too much smaller than the outdoor system you described, and larger if you include the outside reservoir for it.

thanks for the suggestions, i am planning some emergent plants, but my lot is shaded by oaks and sweet gums, i looked up juncus effusus, and found it is common rush, a nice looking native choice, but i think it wants more sun than i have, i'm leaning toward potted ferns,

#32 Guest_EricaWieser_*

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 09:31 AM

Ah, you didn't take my suggestion to use a fluidized bed filter. Oh well. There are many different ways to get the same result.

Pictures? We'd all like to see how it's going.

#33 Guest_don212_*

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 11:55 AM

Ah, you didn't take my suggestion to use a fluidized bed filter. Oh well. There are many different ways to get the same result.

Pictures? We'd all like to see how it's going.

a bucket of rocks with a hole in it is about all the engineering i'm capable of KISS was invented for me, last pictures i submitted took 2 days for me to get online, it'll take me a while to work up the courage to do that again, i will eventually though, thanks

#34 Guest_don212_*

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 08:59 PM

well it's been awhile, my pond is built and operating with a few fish to get it cycled, i built a 4x8 wood frame 2.5 feet deep from a shed deck that was destroyed by a falling tree, lined it with 20 mil reinforced pvc pond liner from lowes. I put in an 800 gph pump and 20 ft of corrugated 3/4 inch tubing, connected to a 9watt uv clarifier, and then to a small waterfall fabricated from a cat litter pail filled with lava rock with a pvc hose connector attached to the bottom back, and a 5 inch slot cut in the top for the waterfall, as soon as i get to a pool store i plan to add a nylon mesh pond filter sheet on top of the lava rock. i have about 2 feet of head, and the pump is just about maxed for this small waterfall. it flows into a small stream about 6 feet into the pond. i took the lid from an old plastic underbed storage unit about 3 ft long ,supported it on milk cartons, and filled it with gravel to place plants in it. this supplies a shallow planted area on top, and hiding underneath. I am in the process of collecting water plants from the river, have a large water lilly, some grass in the shallow, a couple hyacinth, and a couple of others i think are called sagitarius, need to go out in a boat and get some hydrilla. Have some pictures but not too keen on attempting to post them. (I find posting photos here very challenging). I am lining the area around the pond with many plants to attract butterflies, put up bird feeders, around it, already i am attracting a lot of birds and butterflies, eventually i will try to have a full fledged animal refuge, we have a small burn ring nearby for evenings in our lawn chairs, a rope hammock, and as yall suggested we can sit on the wood edge and dangle our feet in the water, this has been a lot of work, a couple hundred dollars investment, and promises to yield a very pleasant place to hang out!!
Does anyone have any specific hot collecting spots for flagfish, golden topminnows, or bluefin killies in central fl??

#35 Guest_don212_*

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 10:08 PM

i,ve had a couple of good collecting trips lately, i now have a few golden topminnows and some mollys in my pond, along with a million tadpoles, my nephew went with me last week to the tsala apopka lake ininverness, and went home with a small aquarium, and fish, and a new obsession. my wife went with me thisweek to wade in the withlacoochee with a dip netnever thought she would enjoy that.. my 29 gal aquarium is now full with a bunch of golden topminnows, two of which are melanistic, and my 10 gal has a bunch of blue fin killies, and dwarf livebearers, in a couple of weeks i,ll transfer some of the topminnows outside, still searching for flagfish, and a mudturtle, or stinkpot, anyone got any local spots for flaggies. joined nanfa tonight, maybe audubon next week. life is good

#36 Guest_Doug_Dame_*

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 11:31 PM

anyone got any local spots for flaggies.

I gather you never saw my PM from a few months ago. It's probably still in your NANFA mailbox. There are flagfish at Ft Cooper State Park right near you, and on the +/- three times I've been there over the years, always near the end of the day, I've barely ever seen anybody else there. When water levels are low, there's a lot of muck though, but heh, that's what makes Florida special. For flagfish, work the vegetated shallows for the really young ones (they could be in one inch of water, or less), bigger ones will likely be a foot to 18" down, also usually in the vegetation. Be aware that females and young flagfish don't have the flag pattern you see in the guide books, they're more bottled green+brown+white, with a distinct large dark spot on the side. Also all the other fish you just mentioned are there. And I think there are also bluespot sunfish, and Elassoma, and swamp darters. Damnbusia of course. Pretty much the normal std crew for that habitat. But other than that, I haven't really explored much near you, although it's only an hour or so southeast of me.

There are a lot of well-known quality spots in or around the Ocala National Forest and Lake Rodman, that would be a 250 mile or so round trip from your place ... basically, a full day trip. Maybe we can go on the "traditional Ocala National Forest tour" one of these days, with 4 to 9 stops with a variety of environs supporting different assemblages of species. Would have to be unlucky to not see close to 20 species on that tour.

#37 Guest_don212_*

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 04:39 PM

thanks, ft cooper is just down the road from me about 5 miles, i'll get down there by next week,ocala forest sounds cool, maybe we could stop at alexander springs to do some snorkeling

#38 Guest_gzeiger_*

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 05:07 PM

You don't need a filter unless you're trying to actively manage the ecosystem to have a high population or landscape it in some particularly unnatural way. In our aquariums we generally do both by actively stocking fish in a bare-bottomed container. In a pond you'll have some soil (intentionally or not, some will end up in there), some plants and sunlight, and a relatively lower fish population. If you like the idea of a waterfall - I sure do - that should provide adequate water movement to allow the bottom of the pond itself to be your filter. Even without that, these fish are quite well adapted to stagnant water, and turtles hardly care.

#39 Guest_Orangespotted_*

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 03:13 PM

I've been wondering for a while if there was a more natural, cheaper, easier way to line small ponds and one that allowed plant roots to grow without puncturing the barrier. After some research, I have concluded that the Sodium bentonite that states usually use to construct ponds in lakes fits the bill pretty well. Here is a website describing it: http://sodiumbentonite.net/ . And after shopping around, I've seen that it's pretty cheap, definitely cheaper than any pond liner or similar product, and it usually sells in 50 pound bags when you only need about 2 pounds to cover a square foot in most soils. It forms a great seal too - plant roots growing through it do not allow water to seep out, and you can make your pond any shape you want. While it is an okay growing medium on its own, you can also cover it with soil (or I'm thinking that cheap kitty litter since it wouldn't be as messy to clean) to grow plants better. I honestly do not understand why it isn't used more... I've only read it used it large-scale projects but it would do great for little ponds too. Just a cool idea that I want to try out someday, if you try it get back to us and tell us how it goes.

EDIT: Make sure to dig your pond deeper than you want it to be though, since sodium bentonite expands when it contacts water.

Edited by Orangespotted, 09 June 2012 - 03:18 PM.

#40 Guest_don212_*

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 08:35 PM

thats interesting, but have you done any other research on this product, i have a commercial catalog that lists sheet products for farm ponds so both products are used, there must be advantages and limitations, seems like plant roots, or burrowing turtles, or scouring from excessive water flow, would eventually cause leaks, which seem to be easily repaired, of course my little pond has vertical sides that need structure, but it is strange that vinyl, and concrete seem to be the only products used in ornamental ponds, since many are not vertical.