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For me. hydra are attracted by my close scrutenizing for eggs, prolarvae and larvael. In other words they are like they more than I recognize but do not register on "radar" until looking for small stuff. Hydra themselves may not be a issue for bluegill but conditions in an indoor system that promotes abundant hydra are not good for young bluegill. Too much organic material often in the form of detritus is present and many organisms associated with such have propensity to become pathogenic to you bluegill.
When trying to rear any numbers indoor in a recirculating aquaculture system (RAS), avoid bring plankton from outside in. Otherwise you will be fighting disease a lot. You are trying to raise an artificially dense group of young fish and those conditions will prove stressfull make so disease outbreak more likely than in nature.
Insects are bad as general rule. They indicate food web is too complex for a RAS.
I suggest again, move a small group to a bare 10-gallon aquarium. First group you can leave father in but cut back on feed you give him. It is not natural but for some reason most sunfishes are like basses in that father is slow to want to eat his own offspring.
Show a picture of your brine shrimp hatching and harvesting setup. That is going to be key to the feeding challenge coming very soon.
Can you post a picture of the prolarvae? I can gestimate exodus time from pictures.
Getting Bluegill to Breed
Started by
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, Jul 10 2012 03:57 AM
99 replies to this topic
#62
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Posted 02 September 2012 - 11:33 PM
Here are a couple of videos of the fish in the nest. They have now began leaving the nest and I believe them to all be swimming by tomorrow afternoon.
#63
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Posted 03 September 2012 - 06:27 AM
Sam,
I can not quite make out yolk sacks but based on how fish are moving about they were 24 hours from exodus. Depending upon your lighting regimen, my prediction is that most will leave nest tonight. A few will drift out today as you indicate but something usually inhibits such during day. They will eat starting about 12 hour before exodus so start feeding them a bit.
Show pictures of your brine shrimp hatching equipment. Need to know limitations.
I can not quite make out yolk sacks but based on how fish are moving about they were 24 hours from exodus. Depending upon your lighting regimen, my prediction is that most will leave nest tonight. A few will drift out today as you indicate but something usually inhibits such during day. They will eat starting about 12 hour before exodus so start feeding them a bit.
Show pictures of your brine shrimp hatching equipment. Need to know limitations.
#64
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Posted 11 September 2012 - 01:59 PM
How are we coming? You should be nearing stage where training to consume a formulated aquafeed is appropriate.
#65
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Posted 14 September 2012 - 12:38 AM
We lost the first spawning. Ammonia levels spiked, this due to incompetence and inexperince.
Luckily as of the 10th we recived another spawning.
The fish hatched on the morning of the 12th and now the 13th tonight they still have egg sacs attached to themselves and have developed black eyes.
Cetrarchid when do the bluegill require feeding? When they swim up out of the nest, the gold eye stage, the black eye stage?
Are bluegill still considered larvae when they swim out of the nest or are they fry at this stage?
Luckily as of the 10th we recived another spawning.
The fish hatched on the morning of the 12th and now the 13th tonight they still have egg sacs attached to themselves and have developed black eyes.
Cetrarchid when do the bluegill require feeding? When they swim up out of the nest, the gold eye stage, the black eye stage?
Are bluegill still considered larvae when they swim out of the nest or are they fry at this stage?
#66
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Posted 14 September 2012 - 09:47 AM
Sam585,
Exodus (swim-up) occurs about 48 to 24 hours after the goldeye stage is realized. Terminology used at exodus stage, even amoung people in my field working with sunfishes, varies greatly. Some people say they are larvae while others say fry. I use larvae since fish have a lot of metamorphosis to go through and digestive tract is very delicate relative to what a juvenile / essentially adult fish has. The term fry is interchangeable for juvenile in my usage and reserved for fish once full complement of rays and spines in vertical fins is realized
We start feeding live food food evening before exodus. Fish in nest will eat some but ensures that by dark when exodus occurs food is abundant. As for starting the use of aquafeed (artificial diet) you can start as early as about 8 days post-exodus but we do not do so until 14 days as delaying start greatly improves number and quality of fish surviving point where they can be fed proper pellets and tolerate handling. You can delay out to 28 days or beyond but that gets very expensive when rainsing higher numbers of fish. If filtration is limiting like in your case, delaying by a week or two might be appropriate until filtration and water quality management technique is up to speed. The transition from live to aquafeed is handily the most difficult part of rearing the young bluegill.
We will be cranking up our operation very soon. I will be able to provide fresh quality images for comparisons.
Exodus (swim-up) occurs about 48 to 24 hours after the goldeye stage is realized. Terminology used at exodus stage, even amoung people in my field working with sunfishes, varies greatly. Some people say they are larvae while others say fry. I use larvae since fish have a lot of metamorphosis to go through and digestive tract is very delicate relative to what a juvenile / essentially adult fish has. The term fry is interchangeable for juvenile in my usage and reserved for fish once full complement of rays and spines in vertical fins is realized
We start feeding live food food evening before exodus. Fish in nest will eat some but ensures that by dark when exodus occurs food is abundant. As for starting the use of aquafeed (artificial diet) you can start as early as about 8 days post-exodus but we do not do so until 14 days as delaying start greatly improves number and quality of fish surviving point where they can be fed proper pellets and tolerate handling. You can delay out to 28 days or beyond but that gets very expensive when rainsing higher numbers of fish. If filtration is limiting like in your case, delaying by a week or two might be appropriate until filtration and water quality management technique is up to speed. The transition from live to aquafeed is handily the most difficult part of rearing the young bluegill.
We will be cranking up our operation very soon. I will be able to provide fresh quality images for comparisons.
#67
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Posted 14 September 2012 - 10:16 AM
Ok, thank you for the enlightenment.
I believe our ammonia spike occurred due to the removal of our original bio filtration system (which can support 70 4"-7" bluegill in 75gal tank) unless a bunch of larval fish ammonia output is substantially more than adult/sub-adult fish. We are now using our original bio filters but with a much much weaker pump.
Regardless i took off all next week and half the week after that to closely monitor the little guys development/feed them and to monitor water quality closely.
I believe our ammonia spike occurred due to the removal of our original bio filtration system (which can support 70 4"-7" bluegill in 75gal tank) unless a bunch of larval fish ammonia output is substantially more than adult/sub-adult fish. We are now using our original bio filters but with a much much weaker pump.
Regardless i took off all next week and half the week after that to closely monitor the little guys development/feed them and to monitor water quality closely.
#68
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Posted 14 September 2012 - 11:15 AM
Ammonia spike likely not related directly to loading from a single bluegill spawn. Did you have a power interuption causing low dissolved oxygen event in biofilter?
I would stick with larger filtration system even with larval fish. Can you make so flow of filtration is largely in a futile cycle? If yes, then as filtration needs increase as feeding load increases you can make so flow of filtration is increasingly online with culture tank. This allows filter to come up on line incrementally with fish and allows the most aggressive filtration of water to keep organics as well as NH3 low.
You should be able to feed adequately without missing school / work. I do it with fish at home just fine by partially compensating feeding schedule so fish have day time conditions at night while I am home. Works great when an infant son demands you wakeup a couple times at night already.
I would stick with larger filtration system even with larval fish. Can you make so flow of filtration is largely in a futile cycle? If yes, then as filtration needs increase as feeding load increases you can make so flow of filtration is increasingly online with culture tank. This allows filter to come up on line incrementally with fish and allows the most aggressive filtration of water to keep organics as well as NH3 low.
You should be able to feed adequately without missing school / work. I do it with fish at home just fine by partially compensating feeding schedule so fish have day time conditions at night while I am home. Works great when an infant son demands you wakeup a couple times at night already.
#69
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Posted 14 September 2012 - 08:32 PM
It came from a number of factors.. mainly uneaten egg yolk, hikari first bites, etc we were incompetent and inexperienced we still are but at least we know not to do that, at least with a weak sponge filter.. That and huge amount of daphnia which we wanted to seed the tank with baby daphnia got stuck in the sponges and died, that did not help either.
I'm taking the week off just because I don't want any surprises, I would not be able to focus on school anyway knowing their are few thousand fish and essentially the culmination of all our hard work just sitting their unattended.
The larvae are just now getting into the gold eye stage. Im going to start feeding them (very very lightly) brine shrimp, and monitor my water closely, as is right now we have 0 ammonia.
Lastly, we were planning on this being our last spawning attempt for the year, but our 2nd female has swollen with eggs. So we are going to try to get another spawning hopefully before the end of next week. Centrarchid if you would still want a photo of what a female bluegill swollen with eggs is supposed to look like let me know.
I'm taking the week off just because I don't want any surprises, I would not be able to focus on school anyway knowing their are few thousand fish and essentially the culmination of all our hard work just sitting their unattended.
The larvae are just now getting into the gold eye stage. Im going to start feeding them (very very lightly) brine shrimp, and monitor my water closely, as is right now we have 0 ammonia.
Lastly, we were planning on this being our last spawning attempt for the year, but our 2nd female has swollen with eggs. So we are going to try to get another spawning hopefully before the end of next week. Centrarchid if you would still want a photo of what a female bluegill swollen with eggs is supposed to look like let me know.
#70
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Posted 14 September 2012 - 09:41 PM
I know all too well what a female swollen looks like. We have good number of ladies stacked up and ready to breed in next month or so.
Advice offered is put egg yolk on salad and eat it yourself. Go brine shrimp all the way. Even newborn waterfleas too big for first feeding larval bluegill unless you are working with one of the smaller species. For water fleas to be effective you need to feed them heavily which clobbers your biofiltrations capacity.
Check out Brine Shrimp Direct. Brine shrimp purchased in quantity not all that expensive.
Advice offered is put egg yolk on salad and eat it yourself. Go brine shrimp all the way. Even newborn waterfleas too big for first feeding larval bluegill unless you are working with one of the smaller species. For water fleas to be effective you need to feed them heavily which clobbers your biofiltrations capacity.
Check out Brine Shrimp Direct. Brine shrimp purchased in quantity not all that expensive.
#71
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Posted 16 September 2012 - 01:12 AM
I got some brine shrimp from Brine Shrimp Direct earlier this week. They are pretty good, and fast delivery times.
Update: been feeding the larvae sparingly throughout the day, around 3pm about 100ish bluegill where swimming around the tank.
Now at 11PM id say more or less than 1/4 of the entire brood are swimming around the nest. Have 5 Batches of brine shrimp prepared for tomorrow and hopefully all goes well. Ammonia readings have been between 0 and 0.1 for the entire day, still monitoring it very closely.
Will feed them one more time and check then check up on them @ 4am.
The fish are now a little over 5 days old.
Update: been feeding the larvae sparingly throughout the day, around 3pm about 100ish bluegill where swimming around the tank.
Now at 11PM id say more or less than 1/4 of the entire brood are swimming around the nest. Have 5 Batches of brine shrimp prepared for tomorrow and hopefully all goes well. Ammonia readings have been between 0 and 0.1 for the entire day, still monitoring it very closely.
Will feed them one more time and check then check up on them @ 4am.
The fish are now a little over 5 days old.
#72
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Posted 16 September 2012 - 02:16 PM
Its hard to determine if im feeding them enough, but what I am going by is if i can see between 1-3 brine shrimp in every 2 inches of water (chosen from random spots) every 2 hours or so.
Noticed about 5 dead larvae floating around, water quality is excellent. Could be from cannibalism or perhaps they ingested a brine shrimp egg.
Either way things are looking good.
Noticed about 5 dead larvae floating around, water quality is excellent. Could be from cannibalism or perhaps they ingested a brine shrimp egg.
Either way things are looking good.
#73
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Posted 16 September 2012 - 06:20 PM
Gauging efficacy of feeding regimen is difficult / subjective and for me not best when looking only at apparent density of brine shrimp in culture tank.
Feeding for me is based on 15 minutes after last feeding and again at time of subsequent feeding. Ideally larvae will get a nice orange belly about 15 minutes after feeding and all fish will look about same. By time of next feeding the belly can be depleted a little but not empty and ideally no brine shrimp from last meal will be present. I record the volume of brine shrimp solution added for each meal trying to be consistent in the brine shrimp concentration in the fed solution. When fish have depleted bellies just prior to a feeding, then either bump up a little or decrease interval between feedings. If fish fail to get uniformly full bellies following feeding then bump up volume fed or check for health issues. If lots of brine shrimp remaining from previous feeding, then back off some but do not discontinue applications. Make so appliation rate changes are done incrementally whether up or down.
Feeding for me is based on 15 minutes after last feeding and again at time of subsequent feeding. Ideally larvae will get a nice orange belly about 15 minutes after feeding and all fish will look about same. By time of next feeding the belly can be depleted a little but not empty and ideally no brine shrimp from last meal will be present. I record the volume of brine shrimp solution added for each meal trying to be consistent in the brine shrimp concentration in the fed solution. When fish have depleted bellies just prior to a feeding, then either bump up a little or decrease interval between feedings. If fish fail to get uniformly full bellies following feeding then bump up volume fed or check for health issues. If lots of brine shrimp remaining from previous feeding, then back off some but do not discontinue applications. Make so appliation rate changes are done incrementally whether up or down.
#74
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Posted 16 September 2012 - 08:03 PM
I just now been able to notice orange bellies on the majority of the fish, some do not appear to have any orange belly this could be from them just failing to get a shrimp, or perhaps it passed the shrimp and just has not eaten it at that time.. At any rate I have increased the amount of brine shrimp fed to about 5 basters full, and it appears a great majority of the larvae are eating, I think i can even see them pass waste, which is exciting 
I find it amazing that the larvae can even eat a brine shrimp, they must have really large mouth gapes.
I find it amazing that the larvae can even eat a brine shrimp, they must have really large mouth gapes.
#75
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Posted 16 September 2012 - 09:25 PM
Freshly hatched brine shrimp are also kind of rubbery so more than gap size involved.
Fish not feeding up now will be laggers.
I like to use little 1/4 or 1/3 cup measurers made of white plastic. Keep harvested brine shrimp in small white bucket supplied with supplemental aeration. Immediately prior to pulling a scoop of brine shrimp solution, stir bucket well to ensure brine shrimp are uniformly distrubuted. With bluegill larvae, try to use brine shrimp shrimp that are less than 12 hours old.
Fish not feeding up now will be laggers.
I like to use little 1/4 or 1/3 cup measurers made of white plastic. Keep harvested brine shrimp in small white bucket supplied with supplemental aeration. Immediately prior to pulling a scoop of brine shrimp solution, stir bucket well to ensure brine shrimp are uniformly distrubuted. With bluegill larvae, try to use brine shrimp shrimp that are less than 12 hours old.
#76
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Posted 17 September 2012 - 12:23 AM
Yep i try to use all the shrimp in 12 hrs after that i throw them out.
#77
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Posted 17 September 2012 - 06:27 AM
Feed unused to adults, females in particular. Puts a serious dent in reconditioning interval.
#78
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Posted 17 September 2012 - 08:52 AM
I believe they have started developing or have developed pectoral fins.
Centrarchid about how long does this brine shrimp stage last? as in from egg to being able to take in artificial feed? about 14-16 days?
Centrarchid about how long does this brine shrimp stage last? as in from egg to being able to take in artificial feed? about 14-16 days?
#79
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Posted 17 September 2012 - 10:22 AM
Pectoral fins were present immediately prior to exodus. They are just now slowing enough to be visible to human eye.
We feed brine shrimp thru 21 days post-exodus. The aquafeed (artifical feed) is started about day 14 so you have about 7 days of overlap. We call that the weaning period and getting two or more types of diet at one time co-feeding. The aquafeed we apply while lights full on. The brine shrimp can be applied at lower light levels. Losses associated with failure to wean will be noted starting immediately after day 25 and be done by day 35. Losses prior to that most likely related to water quality which is not limited to ammonia and nitrites. Can also include bacterial issues and pH swings.
Have you ever played around with an automated feeder? We use belt feeders, sometimes have nearly 100 running at once. They greatly cut down on labor and make so feed nealry continous in availability.
We feed brine shrimp thru 21 days post-exodus. The aquafeed (artifical feed) is started about day 14 so you have about 7 days of overlap. We call that the weaning period and getting two or more types of diet at one time co-feeding. The aquafeed we apply while lights full on. The brine shrimp can be applied at lower light levels. Losses associated with failure to wean will be noted starting immediately after day 25 and be done by day 35. Losses prior to that most likely related to water quality which is not limited to ammonia and nitrites. Can also include bacterial issues and pH swings.
Have you ever played around with an automated feeder? We use belt feeders, sometimes have nearly 100 running at once. They greatly cut down on labor and make so feed nealry continous in availability.
#80
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Posted 17 September 2012 - 11:41 AM
We acquired an automated feeder about a week ago, easy to program and set. Will most likely start using it on the 24th.
The population seems to be pretty stable so far, I notice a few dead ones but never in great number.
Woke up at 5am today to begin feeding them, been checking water regularly and everything seems to be going good.
I am putting a lot of effort and time into this spawning because we have invested so much money, time, effort, and stress to get to this point, losing them is truly unacceptable.
Centrarchid what is the recovery period for male bluegill? I would imagine that they are ready to spawn again after a few days, but are they limited to the amount of spawning's they can have in a given period of say a month?
The population seems to be pretty stable so far, I notice a few dead ones but never in great number.
Woke up at 5am today to begin feeding them, been checking water regularly and everything seems to be going good.
I am putting a lot of effort and time into this spawning because we have invested so much money, time, effort, and stress to get to this point, losing them is truly unacceptable.
Centrarchid what is the recovery period for male bluegill? I would imagine that they are ready to spawn again after a few days, but are they limited to the amount of spawning's they can have in a given period of say a month?
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