I was looking at my Fish tonight and I noticed that both my warmouth have holes in there heads. In between there eyes there are 3 holes in the pattern of a triangle and it look like they may also have them right behind there eyes. is this normal? and no I am sure im not seeing there nostrils. I try and throw up some pictures tomorrow
Warmouth have holes in head?
Started by
Guest_Vandee_*
, May 19 2014 11:09 PM
48 replies to this topic
#2
Guest_centrarchid_*
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Posted 20 May 2014 - 05:58 AM
It is a form of scarring that occurs when they are exposed to some combination of poor nutrition and high bacterial counts in water. It does not reverse. It does not impact quality of life as far as I can tell when they are in aquariums.
#3
Michael Wolfe
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Posted 20 May 2014 - 07:03 AM
I haven't looked at my guy so closely in the face recently... makes me want to go check him out. Is this like the so called "hole in head" disease that people talk about in some aquarium tropicals?
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#4
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Posted 20 May 2014 - 08:40 AM
I had a good number of bluegill and did have some warmouth so affected. Yes, hole in the head disease / syndrome.
#5
Michael Wolfe
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Posted 20 May 2014 - 09:14 AM
OK thanks,I will look closer at my guy. Lots of growth recently on mostly massivore pellets. Hopefully we have a balanced diet.
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin
#6
Guest_gerald_*
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Posted 20 May 2014 - 09:24 AM
There are normal pin-prick-size pores on the head that are part of the lateral line sensory system. These pores can get infected with bacteria and/or protozoa (due to causes mentioned by centrarchid) that cause the pores to become larger and more visible pits. Scars and pits often remain after the infection is gone and healed.
#7
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
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Posted 20 May 2014 - 09:30 AM
What is the nitrate concentration in either ppm or mg/L? Usually when fish have hole in the head the water has >30 ppm nitrate.
I've heard people check their water and get back to me and it was above 100. Yup, that'll do it. I try to keep my aquarium water at 30 ppm nitrate or less.
I've heard people check their water and get back to me and it was above 100. Yup, that'll do it. I try to keep my aquarium water at 30 ppm nitrate or less.
#8
Guest_Vandee_*
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Posted 20 May 2014 - 12:38 PM
Hmm that is interesting. seems strange to me that only my warmouth have it and none of the other 6 fish in the tank have anything.
#9
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
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Posted 20 May 2014 - 01:03 PM
Look at any LC50 or other death curve and you'll see: the individuals in a population don't all drop off exactly at the same time. It's sort of like a normal curve with some contracting symptoms early, a lot in the middle, and some lasting to the very end. The same thing's killing them, but very rarely do they all express symptoms at exactly the same time. That warmouth was for some reason more susceptible than the others, or for some other reasons showed symptoms first. Perhaps it had a higher stress level than the others, was recovering from an injury the others didn't sustain, had a weaker immune response versus this particular assault, its symbiotic bacteria population was already greater skewed towards the negative species, etc. There's a lot of reasons why one goes first. It doesn't mean the others aren't also at risk.
#10
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Posted 20 May 2014 - 01:46 PM
There is going to be an awful lot of speculation in this thread unless you do manage to get some GOOD photos. It may be nothing, possibly the normal pores. Right now I would take everything with a grain of salt and not worry yet.
To avoid getting a poor diagnosis, it would be prudent that only people with pretty extensive experience with centrarchids comment.
To avoid getting a poor diagnosis, it would be prudent that only people with pretty extensive experience with centrarchids comment.
#11
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
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Posted 20 May 2014 - 01:53 PM
+1 to what Matt said. I just assumed they were unusual holes in the head but without a picture, yeah, they might not be.
I got freaked out by my L144 pleco's face holes yesterday. She was flaring them for some reason (probably a breeding thing?). Sort of unrelated but awesome: they say that the green things are eyeballs and the forward pointing holes are nose holes: http://weirdopedia.o...t-head-fish.jpg
I got freaked out by my L144 pleco's face holes yesterday. She was flaring them for some reason (probably a breeding thing?). Sort of unrelated but awesome: they say that the green things are eyeballs and the forward pointing holes are nose holes: http://weirdopedia.o...t-head-fish.jpg
#12
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Posted 20 May 2014 - 02:30 PM
I am afraid that the holes may be normal just like Gerald mentioned. I have only kept one warmouth, and unless they are obviously something very irregular, I won't be of any help. Centrarchid, Gerald, and Brian Zimmerman, could probably steer you well. I don't know how much experience Michael has with them, but he currently has one in a tank to make a direct comparison. Maybe Michael could post a good photo of his fish. I know he wants an excuse to use his Go Pro.
#13
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Posted 20 May 2014 - 02:37 PM
Agree with Skipjack we dont have much evidence (and no photo) to diagnose Vandee's warmouth, which might not have anything wrong, but what Erica says here is true and applicable to ALL diseases and stress-related problems. I've heard this type of question many times at club meeting, in shops, and in forums: "If this one got sick (or died) from cause X, why didn't they all get sick (or die)?"
... very rarely do they all express symptoms at exactly the same time. That warmouth was for some reason more susceptible than the others, or for some other reasons showed symptoms first. Perhaps it had a higher stress level than the others, was recovering from an injury the others didn't sustain, had a weaker immune response versus this particular assault, its symbiotic bacteria population was already greater skewed towards the negative species, etc. There's a lot of reasons why one goes first. It doesn't mean the others aren't also at risk.
#14
Michael Wolfe
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Posted 20 May 2014 - 02:54 PM
Here is a picture of his face... I dont see any pores at all???I am afraid that the holes may be normal just like Gerald mentioned. I have only kept one warmouth, and unless they are obviously something very irregular, I won't be of any help. Centrarchid, Gerald, and Brian Zimmerman, could probably steer you well. I don't know how much experience Michael has with them, but he currently has one in a tank to make a direct comparison. Maybe Michael could post a good photo of his fish. I know he wants an excuse to use his Go Pro.
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#15
Guest_Skipjack_*
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Posted 20 May 2014 - 03:11 PM
Surely nothing that looks anything like a "hole"
#16
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
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Posted 20 May 2014 - 04:38 PM
Hole in the head looks way different. Here's a picture shared by mishka of http://www.oscarfish...ncerning-oscars
Notice the nose hole on both fishes in between the eye and the mouth. Both fishes have nose holes. Only one has hole in the head.
Notice the nose hole on both fishes in between the eye and the mouth. Both fishes have nose holes. Only one has hole in the head.
#17
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Posted 20 May 2014 - 04:55 PM
That oscar looks like something is obviously wrong, but they are not in a specific pattern like the OP described. Maybe Oscars have more facial pores that can become infected than Lepomis?
#18
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
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Posted 20 May 2014 - 05:54 PM
That oscar looks like something is obviously wrong, but they are not in a specific pattern like the OP described. Maybe Oscars have more facial pores that can become infected than Lepomis?
It's a gradual disease that starts with the holes and ends up taking over the entire head like this:
Photo by LA of http://aqualandpetsp... HITH Oscar.htm That link shows a fish heal from November to January. It looks much better after a few months of clean water.
#19
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Posted 20 May 2014 - 05:57 PM
That is ugly. Seems that oscars are highly susceptible.
#20
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
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Posted 20 May 2014 - 06:08 PM
Well, I mean, a lot of people keep oscars in ridiculously nitrate rich water. Factor in the sheer amount of oscars sold as juveniles in pet stores and the way they often end up being the only fish in their tank (a great way to lose the fishkeeper's interest). By the time they reach adulthood, a large number of them end up housed in dirty water because they refuse to die long after their owners have grown bored of them. Then the high nitrate gives them hole in the head. It doesn't help that people just assume "cichlid" means not-plant-compatible, which is untrue. Without plants or water changes, thousands of long lived, neglected oscars end up living in really nitrate rich water. This all leads to these readily available photos of oscars with hole in the head. I don't think it's only the fish species: it's also how common they are and how they're usually housed. I've yet to see an oscar housed in a tank I approved of, except the one in the Denver zoo. I once saw a solo oscar tank that was only half full because the water had evaporated, was totally yellow, and you didn't even want to measure its nitrate. It had no live plants in it and hadn't received a water change in months or years. That is both gross and boring.Seems that oscars are highly susceptible.
Check out how the very same oscar healed after one month of regular water changes:
http://aqualandpetsp... HITH Oscar.htm
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