46 replies to this topic

[gitano]

I have a year-old redbreasted that has a "skin" problem. It is in a 60-gal tank with four other centrarchids and an ictalurid. There are no live vascular plants in the tank. The water is filtered by one Aquatop CF300, and one Tetra Power Filter 60. I have had these fish for 10 months. All of the fish came from the same source. No other fish have any problems. The water for the tank comes from a well from which I derive all of my household potable water.

While this condition has persisted for about 5 months (I think longer), it does not effect the fish's ability or willingness to feed, neither can I determine any adverse effect on behavior of any kind. (That's why I have waited to diagnose and treat.)

I have provided some images below. Perfectly lateral images taken with flash don't show the infection, but frontal images do. I have looked online for "fish diseases" and not found any that I thought "fit". Your help would be appreciated.

Here's the first "frontal" image.


Here is the best "frontal" I was able to get of the other side.


Here are a couple of lateral images. I'm hoping that after seeing the images above you can see the 'anomalies' on these lateral images.








Thanks,
Paul

[littlen]

That is very unusual, Paul. What bothers me is 1) this has shown up after 10 months of no other issues or outbreaks. 2) None of the other fish are showing any of the same spots.

Are you seeing any 'flashing'....or the fish itching itself, per say, on the gravel or any tank decorations? Any aggression between this fish and others? Possible damage to the scales? Although the fish looks normal when viewed from the side.

It is possible that some pathogen made it in on the latest water change using the well water, but why now--in winter and not during the summer when infectious diseases are more common? (I'm rhetorically thinking out loud!).

Do you have any other tanks? Perhaps a tropical tank, where myco might be prevalent? The usage of tank equipment from one tank to the next could have exposed the sunfish to something the tropicals are not showing any symptoms of.

From the pics, the areas in question appear to be spiky--as in formed by something or as the result of something. The fish in question looks good otherwise and as you say, is eating and behaving normally.

[gitano]

Thank you for your response, littlen. Let me clarify a couple of things.

First, it didn't "just show up". It's been around - noticeable - for probably 5 months. The fish does try to "wipe" itself occasionally, but if it is more than the other fish are doing the same thing, it's certainly not much more. This fish is the biggest fish in the tank, and there is no aggression towards it, and it competes effectively with the others for food. Not likely anything came in through the last well-water change. I have other tanks, but nothing shared between tanks, and in fact tanks are on separate levels of the house. No tropical fish. But something did just occur to me. I have on occasion put feeder fish from the local pet store in the tank.

Honestly, this looks more parasitic to me than "infectious". I does not look 'scale-related'. They seem more like "eruptions". I was hoping that keeping the tank clean and the fish healthy might allow it to "heal itself", but after this long, and since I can't find something online that resembles it, I thought I would "bring it here" and see if anyone knew what it was.

Thanks again,
Paul

[littlen]

Sorry, I missed the part about it being there for the last 5 months.

Feeder goldfish can absolutely be host to a number of pathogens and is a good smoking-gun at this point. I have seen the eruptions you describe, but not quite as abundantly as your fish has them. I see one or two, then they disappear quickly and heal. Do you notice the same spots/eruptions persisting the entire 5 months, or do they erupt-heal-and then erupt again elsewhere? It is still a little confusing why none of the other fish have these.

There are plenty of medications for external parasites that could be used to try to treat the fish, but it would be best to try and ID the culprit if indeed it is some little nasty making trouble for your fish. Perhaps someone else has had similar experiences and knows what is going on with your fish.

[centrarchid]

I see that frequently. Do a scraping and look for protozoans organized to look like coral or cauliflower.

[centrarchid]

It does not spread easily but does seem to related to dissolved organic compound levels in water. Usually, if same organism involved, attachment point with be spines, bones or scales.

[gerald]

centrarchid - are you thinking it's Epistylis or something like that? I wonder what the underlying causes may be, and why it doesn't seem to get better or worse over time. Are water quality and diet OK? Not too soft or acidic, is it? Is she eating a good variety of foods, including some veggies?

[gitano]

Thank you for your replies!

Does not spread easily - Both apparently true for this case, and 'good news'.

Related to dissolved organic compounds in the water - Do you have some examples of those compounds?

I see one or two, then they disappear quickly and heal. Do you notice the same spots/eruptions persisting the entire 5 months, - None have disappeared, and I have photographic evidence that these same ones have persisted from the initial infestation/infection.

do they erupt-heal-and then erupt again elsewhere? - I have not observed that.

Do a scraping and look for protozoans organized to look like coral or cauliflower. Do you have a species name or other taxonomic group that this parasite (hopefully that's what it is), belongs to that is a little 'lower' than "protozoan"? Do you have any other identification that I could use to look up them up?

Considering the infectious nature of "ick" (Ichthyophthirius multifilis)- a protozoan-caused disease - and the fact that neither "white patches" or "excessive mucus" or "opaque film" formed, I ruled "ick" out. However, if this is a protozoan ectoparasite, then the treatments I read of on the internet remain fairly constant over most of the variations.

Since I have not dealt with this type of disease before and the internet has several suggestions regarding treatment, I would appreciate any first-hand experience with respect to the drug of choice and the therapy.

Thanks again for your time.
Paul

[centrarchid]

Epistylis. I have some quality examples but cannot currently touch them. Will try to photograph and upload.

[gitano]

gerald - Apparently we were posting at about the same time and I missed your comments.

50 of 60 gal of water gets changed every two weeks. Prior to change, water chemistry tests of pH, ammonia (as NH₃/NH₄), nitrite (as NO_2^-), and nitrate (as NO_3^-) are performed. Over the past 10 months this tank has been in use, the pH has remained between 7.4 and 7.8. Ammonia, always 0, nitrites 0, nitrates between 0 and 10<>20 ppm with all but one 0.

Besides the water quality, I don't think this is stress-of-any-kind related because: 1) none of the other centrarchids have the infestation, 2) this fish has no stress symptoms whatsoever, 3) this fish eats and interacts with other fish in all ways normally, 4) this fish is the largest of the bunch and all were received at the same time and of the same age, 5) there is one centrarchid that IS the "social outcast", and that fish is not showing signs of distress including this parasitation.

I'll look up epistylus sp.,

Thanks!
Paul

[centrarchid]

Fish in question does not look like a redbreast. Looks much more like the longears of the Mississippi Embayment.

[gitano]

There is some uncertainty regarding the species of this fish. I ordered dollars and pumpkinseeds, but received a green, two dollars, unknown hybrids, and one pumpkinseed. It's possible that the fish in these pictures is a longear, but I don't think so. When I brought the species issue up with the supplier, it was he, based on his knowledge of what fish he has in what tank, that suggested "redbreast". By the same token, I don't care to 'argue' about it either. If "you" (anyone) wants to call it a longear, I have no problem with that. Come next spring, its genetic background should be less ambiguous.

I forgot to mention the feeding regimen outside the early feeder fish. Once I got Eisenia fetida, Tenebrio molitor, and Enchytraeus kinkaidi cultures going, these fish get a combination of E. fetida, T. molitor, E. kinkaidi, frozen blood worms, and frozen salmon roe. Mostly, each of the different items is given on different days. On some days I will give both frozen blood worms and one of the other "worms". The catfish usually gets to the roe before the centrarchids are finished with the worms. I don't think poor food quality or variety is the cause of the infestation.

Paul

[gitano]

I see that online documents recommend either formaldehyde-based or malachite green-based (copper) treatments. I can't find those at my local pet store (Pet Zoo). Are they still available? If so, can anyone suggest or recommend a source?

Thanks,
Paul

[gitano]

I looked up epistylis, and that is certainly the closest I have seen to what my fish has. I am going to proceed with that diagnosis and treat accordingly. I'm still interested in suggestion regarding sources for treatment chemicals/drugs.

Thanks to all that responded to my inquiry,
Paul

[littlen]

Paul, I agree that the fish in question looks very Redbreast-ish to me, but will also note that "centrarchid" (as his name applies) is one of the leading sunfish guru's/professionals on the forum. I think you are happy with your fish regardless of what species it is.

Most of the ich medications you can get at the LFS are copper based. Your infestation is certainly not ich, but a treatment regime with a copper-based medication might work. One that comes to mind is Aquarisol, but there are many.

[gitano]

Hello, Nick. I wasn't 'taking issue' with centrarchid's comment regarding the taxonomy of this fish, I just don't care to argue about things that can't be proven. I'm not suggesting centrarchid was starting an argument, rather that I simply don't care at this point. I would MUCH prefer a longear to a redbreasted

No copper or formalin-based treatments available locally. I'll get some from the web.

All of the formalin/copper-based treatments caution with respect to "scale-less" fish. The bullhead I have is obviously "scale-less", as well as precious to me. I don't really want to remove him from the tank. (I don't like to move fish.) Anyone have suggestions or recommendations with respect to formalin or copper-based treatments and Ictalurus sp.





Thanks,
Paul

[littlen]

Both sunfish and catfish are very hardy groups of fish. Especially their tolerance for environmental swings. What might be easiest for you is to treat the infected sunfish out of the tank in a 5 gallon bucket for a short bath, but the choice is ultimately yours. I'll elaborate....


Formalin is a very effective medication to be used on external parasites. It can be used in a low dose/prolonged bath or high dose/quick dip situation. Since you do not appear to have a highly infectious or life threatening situation, I could go for the low dose, prolonged immersion. Your catfish will do just fine with a 24 hour bath at a low concentration....especially since you have no problem doing large water changes. This way the entire system gets treated. It will not kill your biological filtration.

If you choose to go this route, I would try to locate/buy some 37% formalin(formaldehyde). Dosing the tank to the tune of .09mL of formalin per gallon will give you a concentration of 25ppm. I would add this (and LOTS of additional aeration) to the tank and let them soak for 24 hours. At that point you can perform as big of a water change as you want. The tank is then left untreated for an additional 24 hours. Repeat this process 2 more times such that they receive a total of 3 treatments. (**You may notice some cloudiness and foaming at the surface. This happens frequently and I think it is the result of a bacterial bloom. It should not affect your fish).

The other option in my opinion, and less work, would be to do a higher concentration bath out of the tank. Using a 5 gallon bucket, add 1 or 2 gallons of tank water, (measure carefully). Move the fish in, and add LOTS of additional air to the bucket. Adding .36mL of formalin per gallon then gives you a concentration of 100ppm. Monitoring the fish closely for severe reactions, you can leave it in up to an hour. (It is typical to see fish breathing rapidly and might even become atypically colored. This is acceptable and a common result of this treatment. I'm sure you have good experience to know if it was something more than that going on and the fish was taking a turn for the worse. If that were to happen, end the bath immediately and return the fish to the tank.
After the dip, the fish can instantly go back to the [untreated] tank and the bath water discarded. Repeat this treatment every other day for a total of 3 treatments. Going this route spares all the other fish of being exposed to the formalin, and doesn't require frequent, large, water changes to your tank. However, it does leave the possibility that the tank remains a possible source for reinfection.

[gitano]

Thanks lttlen, excellent instructions!

I'm inclined to the former treatment as it would hopefully disinfect the the tank. While the fish remain healthy in this environment, it is difficult to keep ambient temperature below 74 F. While this is not "high" for these species, I believe that seasonally lower temperatures - down to 50-ish F - are "best". My point is this: At this elevated, constant ambient temperature, the fish might be more susceptible to an infection of any sort should any new stressor be introduced. However, if I read the life-history of this particular class of ectoparsites correctly, the free-swimming stages lose viability if they don't reattach within 3 days of being 'released'. However, I am unconvinced of that "certainty". I have learned over the years that most biological science "facts" are more "general rules". "Sterile" critters find a way to produce viable offspriing. "Inescapable" enclosures, aren't. Those that "can't survive/reproduce in this environment", do. Therefore I am inclined to a "belt and suspenders" approach, which is more like your whole-tank treatment.

While the local fish store has goldfish (Carassius auratus) feeders, I used Danio sp. and guppies (Gambusia sp) because of their smaller size. I wasn't thinking about this sort of infection when I purchased them to vary the diet and provide some predatory stimulation. Obviously, I should have. No more fish store feeders for me. Of course it is possible that the fish came from the supplier infected, but I don't think that is the case for a couple of reasons. First, none of the other fish became infected, and this didn't show up until 5-ish months after receipt. I think the feeders were the vector.

I find it curious that the other fish have not become infected. I don't like those kinds of 'mysteries' as they too often lead to 'surpirses' - usually unpleasant ones - in the future. Furthermore, understanding why only one fish among several - the largest one and still vigorous - is the only one infected, is part of having a comprehensive understanding how my 'system' is functioning. "Comprehensive understanding" helps prevent (not eliminate), future surprises. While it is likely that I will never know why only this fish is infected, I will do my best to 'figure it out'.

I sincerely appreciate your thorough tutorial, and will keep you posted with respect to how things turn out.

Thanks,
Paul

[littlen]

You're welcome, Paul. I think your fish will do great. Keep us posted on their progress once treatment starts.

[gitano]

Both sunfish and catfish are very hardy groups of fish.

Speaking of 'hardy'... Long ago (about 40 years) and far away (SoCal), I had a tank with longears, bluegills, a brown bullhead and a large Cambarus sp. I came home one day to find the catfish on the floor, completely dried out, and covered with shag carpet fibers. It wasn't stiff, but its skin was so dried out that it would 'click' if I flicked it with a fingernail. I was quite certain the fish was 'done for'. I was kinda busy at that moment and didn't want to deal with the 'corpse', so I just threw it back in the tank. I figured I would get back to it 'later'. When I did get back to it, I found the catfish swimming around, almost no worse for the wear. All of his fins died back almost to his body, but otherwise it showed no other ill effects. In a couple of weeks it was back to normal. I cannot say for certain because I didn't observe it, but I believe that the opercula had sealed against the cliethra thereby preserving the moisture for the gills. I have seen that in other catfish that have been left out of water for a while. So I appreciate the hardiness of most ictalurids. However, getting desiccated is different than getting "poisoned" with chemicals. Based on what I was reading about chemical therapies, I was uncertain about the ability of this bullhead to 'take' the chemical treatment. As I have only little experience with chemical treatment of infections, I'll take your assurances to heart and not concern myself with special treatment (isolation) of the catfish.

Paul