46 replies to this topic

[gitano]

Finally got Rid-Ick in the mail today and started 15-day treatment.

News at 11...

Paul

[gitano]

At today's feeding, the only fish apparently not affected by the treatment were the fish with the problem - the "redbreast" - and the bullhead. (Please allow me the "redbreast" moniker until sexual maturity determines if indeed it is something else.) The green sunfish and the pumpkinseed were "off their feed". They both ate, but they were noticeably less aggressive in their competition for food. Normally, the pumkinseed and the redbreast are the most aggressive in getting 'worms' of all sorts, and the green darts rapidly "in and out" of the feeding area. This morning, only the redbreast and bullhead exhibited their normal feeding behavior.The pumpkinseed and green sunfish ate a few Tenebrio molitor but nothing like their normal numbers. The pumpkinseed ignored all but those that were immediately in front of it, and the green sunfish remained in its hiding place for most of the feeding session. The smaller longear is always 'last to eat', and usually just waits for the blood worms, so its response to the treatment is not obvious at this point.

This particular treatment schedule calls for repeats at days 3, 7, 10, and 15. If the infestation is "bad" a day-5 treatment is recommended.

Paul

[gitano]

So it has been 15 days since I started the Rid-Ich treatment and while the infection is not completely gone, the treatment is clearly working. Have a look at the first picture in this thread, then have a look at the following that were taken today.















The ellipse on the caudal peduncle between the dorsal and caudal fins is to show that there are no lesions there. There were 4 before the treatment started.

On the subject of the ID of the species, does anyone think it could be, or at be a hybrid of a red-spotted? Remember that this fish is currently 18 months old at the oldest (brood year - 2013), and that it is probably a female. I'm unfamiliar with redspotted sunfish, so this is just a WAG, but if it's not a red-breasted, it's gotta be something.

I intend to continue the treatments until I see no 'lesions'. I suspect about another week should do it.

Thanks for the help!

Paul

[Isaac Szabo]

I'm glad the medication is working. It doesn't look like a redspotted to me. I would have said redbreast. However, Centrarchid knows sunfish, so if he says longear, it should be considered. There is a lot a variation within longears, and I don't have experience with the variant he thinks this fish is.

[Matt DeLaVega]

I am curious as to what species this is. It does not look "typical" for any of the species mentioned.

[centrarchid]

Fish looking less like a longear to me as well. Does show some Redbreast look to it but chunky.

[gitano]

I suppose that the truth is probably that it is some form of hybrid. I don't care TOO much, but would certainly prefer a non-hybrid.

It also appears that every fish (of the centrarchids) I received is a female. How's that for 'odds'! I'm not sure what I'll do about that. I have a great deal invested in these fish, the most significant of which is time. While females are certainly as interesting behaviorally as males, there's really no comparison in 'looks'. I don't have unlimited aquarium space, and also don't care one whit about breeding fish, so I'm having a difficult time finding a rational justification for maintaining them. While I would hate to have the loss, these fish - except the bullhead - may have to go 'to the freezer', and I would just have to 'roll the dice' again. The fact that this fish is likely a hybrid further diminishes its value to me. I'l wait a little while longer to make that decision.

As to the "chunkieness" of this fish, not knowing exactly to what you are referring, centrarchid, I can't comment, but let me add that if it is its "belly" to which you refer, I keep these fish well fed, AND this fish is the most aggressive eater. Maybe a more correct description of the feeding behavior of the tank is that the other centrarchids are more reticent to feed. Here's the point I am trying to make: This fish isn't "aggressive" toward the other fish, it simply isn't hesitant to take food as soon as it appears. It does not harass the other fish, it simply "gets there" first. The others show no fear of this fish, even taking food items directly in front of it, but they simply 'hesitate' more before coming out to feed. Therefore, this fish almost always has a relatively distended belly. As does the bullhead. I actually have to change my mode of feeding due to the bullhead. If I simply "dump" the food - Tenebrio molitor, (larvae, pupae, and adults), blood worms, and Eisenia fetida - in the tank, most end up on the bottom before the centrarchids can consume them. That means the bullhead is likely to 'vacuum' the majority of them up. If instead I drop them in one or two at a time, the centrarchids take them before the catfish - relying solely on 'taste' instead of vision - can find them. At any rate, this centrarchid - redbreast, hybrid or whatever - is always "well-fed". If on the other hand, you are referring to the chunkiness of it's "shoulders" and other non-coelomic anatomy, then that indeed may be further indication of a species.

Thanks again, for the assistance with the treatment.
Paul

PS - One of the characteristics that "bothers" me about the ID of the fish being either a redbreast or red-spotted or any of the other similar "slab-sided" centrarchid are the green iridescent vermiculations on the rostrum and operculum. Those look VERY "green sunfishy" to me, and green sunfish are among the most 'promiscuous' of the sunfishes. My suspicion is a green x redbreast, maybe F2.

Paul

[gerald]

Your fish looks like a pretty normal (and fat) female redbreast sunny to me. I dont see any evidence of a hybrid. This pic on Jonah's website has green iridescence on the snout and cheeks like yours, and looks very much like typical redbreasts I see in NC.
http://jonahsaquariu...epauritus04.htm

[Michael Wolfe]

Agree that most often he redbreast I see (here in GA) have the green vermiculations on the face. Even the very young and the females.

[gitano]

Hello and MERRY CHRISTMAS! Hope you all had a wonderful day!

I'm only here on Christmas day to report a very strange and disturbing turn. New 'lesions' have turned up on the 'redbreast', and more significantly, both the pumpkinseed AND the bullhead now have lesions! All of a sudden 'things' have taken a turn for the worse, and just in the last three days!

The only element of these fish's life that has changed is that water temperature. I have infloor (radiant panel) heating in my house. Two weeks ago, the breaker tripped that controls the boiler. Because my house is so efficient, I didn't realize it for 7 days. When I reset the breaker, the temperature rose over the next few days to 80 F and remained there for several days. (I turned all of the thermostats off, but again, the house is so efficient, it takes DAYS to drop a degree or two.) Today, the temperature in the tank is 79 F. Other than that, there has been NO change in the fish's environment. (By the time I realized the boiler was off, the temperature in the tank had dropped to right about 70 F even.) I'm having a difficult time believing that the temperatures in question - 70 to 80 F - OR the time-frame over which the change occurred - about 10 days - could have caused sufficient stress to induce this problem, but I don't have any other ideas.

Do you?

Paul

PS - No problems in my other tanks.

[centrarchid]

Show a picture of wounds. What are your lighting arrangements? Especially at night?

[gerald]

Yes, close-up pics of new lesions would help. Maybe it's a systemic bacterial infection and not a parasite.

[gitano]

The lesions are identical to the ones in all of the above images.

The fins of the redbreast have not been affected through out this infection, but the fins of the pumpkinseed are now seriously affected, and in a very short interval of time. The catfish has two 'spots' - one on the tip of the right pectoral fin, and one at the ventral base of the caudal. I have to look closely to see the one on the pectoral fin. I'm actually quite concerned about the pumpkinseed. It has gone from "nothing" to "serious" in certainly no more than 36 hours.

The tank in question is subject to the (photo--periods) that one would find in a living room at the 63rd parallel. However, the tank lights are never on unless I turn them on briefly (a minute or less) to have a detailed look around the tank. Such a 'look around' rarely happens more frequently than once every other day or so. The closest room light to the tank is approximately 15 feet away. This time of year, there is insufficient light - from any source - to sustain any algal growth in the tank. On the other hand, ambient light in the summer 'encourages' a very healthy algal crop.

I'd be surprised if light had anything to do with this change, but then there aren't too many elements to consider and light is certainly a main one. I'll do a chemistry test and see if there are any indicators there. If the chemistry tests don't reveal any obvious cause, I will do a 'scrape' of each of the 'lesions'. I didn't do that to the redbreast because I didn't want to stress it. The pumpkinseed is looking pretty ragged, and I really don't want to add to what is certainly a sudden stressor, but I will if I think it is necessary.

Paul

[centrarchid]

With respect to lighting, think about roosting / sleeping arrangements realized and how that may chronically impact certain areas of body through physical abrasion. Your indoor tanks go darker faster than anything in nature making for some odd sleeping arrangements.

Go tonight without disturbing fish after dark and look at them with a red light.

[gitano]

I'm not following your logic, centrarchid. Are you suggesting that there may be some 'late night' aggression? Or are you suggesting there may be some 'abrasion' by the plastic plants?

Paul

PS - Oh yeah; No chemistry issues linked to pH, (7.4-7.6), nitrites (0), nitrates (0), or ammonia (0).

Paul

[centrarchid]

Abrasion can be from contacting anything, including each other. We use to think it was a result of using cylindrical tanks with a rotating flow for self cleaning but even see it in aquariums when density relatively high and fish "roost" in odd places. Relatively high can be below the maximum recommended for community aquariums. We can control problem by using a night light.

[gitano]

Everything seems to be "fine" now. The pumpkinseed's fins are healing, the lesions on the catfish are gone as are any hint of them on all but the originally-infected fish (redbreast), on which they are now difficult to see.

I believe the problem was living on the upper edge of the temperature range at ~72 degrees Fahrenheit then spiking up to ~80 degrees for several days. When the temperature went up, it was all it took to 'tip them over the edge'. I have seen this many times in cold-water fish. While these are clearly not cold-water fish, most centrarchids can find, (except in the smallest impoundments), refugia cooler than 80 to 82 degrees Fahrenheit. I think the extra heat was just too much. This belief is supported by the observation that the fish are now "all right" after the temperature dropped back to ~72 degrees F. Still too hot for my preferences, but no solution in the immediate future. I am planning to build a cooling unit, but too many other irons in the fire at the moment.

The treatment has proven successful but based on the above issue, I have my doubts that the 'pathogen' has been removed from the tank. I really don't like the idea of sterilizing the tank. Possibly cooler water will prevent that drastic a measure. My intent is to keep them at an annual temperature cycle consistent with a 'natural' body of water at about 45 degrees north latitude. That too will likely help keep stress-related infections at bay. Finally, I am looking for a controller for ambient light that I can program. My intent is to simulate the diurnal ambient light also at about 45 degrees north latitude. Do any of you know of such a controller 'on the market'. I hate reinventing the wheel or paying "government" prices for things.

Thanks again for your help,
Paul

[gzeiger]

If you mean something to control room lighting, there are many on the market. Look for them under Home Security. Usually they will be marketed as a way to make a house look inhabited while you're on vacation.

[gitano]

Thanks, but I was thinking more about a device attached to the lighting in the tank. A simple timer would turn lights on/off at specified times, but "on" and "off" don't simulate diurnal light intensity very well. Wild critters are more responsive to subtle changes in light than most folks are aware of. While I don't 'worry' about it, I'm trying to simulate diurnal light intensity and seasonal water temperature fluctuations. Once the fish are accustomed to a particular light pattern, their behavior can more precisely be manipulated. For example, I could "make" it "winter" by changing the lighting and water temperature. Or, I could "make" a "year" be only 6 months - or maybe less - in actual length by accelerating the changing light periodicity and water temperature change. One can manipulate behavior with hormones. I'm interested in the level of manipulation I can achieve solely through manipulating the ambient light, temperature, and food.

Paul

[gzeiger]

I guess I misunderstood your use of the word "ambient." Coral breeders sometimes use fairly elaborate setups to do something like this, but it isn't easy to make something reasonably priced that will give you continuous variability. I think the best reasonable option is to have two or three smaller lights on the tank with overlapping timer intervals. The first on and last off can be fairly dim and/or diffuse, or even just be a floor lamp near the tank.