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Help Stocking a Quarry


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#21 centrarchid

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Posted 29 March 2015 - 10:31 AM

Humans involved with those larger gamefish, sanctioned by owner or not.  Exactly same done to my current quarry project and campus library pond.  Some monkey with a bucket though my water bodies needed some additional stock management beyond what I intended.

 

The invasiveness I implied means even though your stocked population may be of a species already occurring in the drainage, that does not mean they are of the same population and sometimes that can be very important.  That means you can have an invasive set of genes coming in that my disrupt the native drainage population if the fish you stock are different and get out.

 

I am no longer so keen on limiting my definition of invasiveness to the species level, especially when you get away from the spieces already in the aquaculture trade for stocking purposes.. 


Find ways for people not already interested in natives to value them.

#22 Moontanman

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Posted 29 March 2015 - 10:39 AM

The paddlefish is a great idea, not going to reproduce but their shark like look is pretty cool, a lake sturgeon might be cool too, not sure how many of each could be supported in that size body of water, if it's that clear I would suggest not many paddlefish unless you are going to feed them. 

 

 

Are flat head catfish native to your area? I know the channels are native to the same areas as flathead, be a nice big fish to see on night fives. 


Michael

Life is the poetry of the universe
Love is the poetry of life

#23 Sean Phillips

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Posted 29 March 2015 - 10:43 AM

The paddlefish is a great idea, not going to reproduce but their shark like look is pretty cool, a lake sturgeon might be cool too, not sure how many of each could be supported in that size body of water, if it's that clear I would suggest not many paddlefish unless you are going to feed them. 
 
 
Are flat head catfish native to your area? I know the channels are native to the same areas as flathead, be a nice big fish to see on night fives.


Yes, flatheads are native around here, the local creek to that quarry is known for its great catfishing in fact. The only thing I fear with flatheads is their extremely predatory nature.
Sean Phillips - Pine Creek Watershed - Allegheny River Drainage

#24 centrarchid

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Posted 29 March 2015 - 10:43 AM

Paddlefish a good call.  Flatheads might target even the largest gamefish as forage.


Find ways for people not already interested in natives to value them.

#25 Sean Phillips

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Posted 29 March 2015 - 10:44 AM

Humans involved with those larger gamefish, sanctioned by owner or not.  Exactly same done to my current quarry project and campus library pond.  Some monkey with a bucket though my water bodies needed some additional stock management beyond what I intended.
 
The invasiveness I implied means even though your stocked population may be of a species already occurring in the drainage, that does not mean they are of the same population and sometimes that can be very important.  That means you can have an invasive set of genes coming in that my disrupt the native drainage population if the fish you stock are different and get out.
 
I am no longer so keen on limiting my definition of invasiveness to the species level, especially when you get away from the spieces already in the aquaculture trade for stocking purposes..


Never thought of it that way, but a very valid point. Since all those fish are native to the closest creek, I could collect them there rather than locally if you think that'd be a safer option.
Sean Phillips - Pine Creek Watershed - Allegheny River Drainage

#26 Sean Phillips

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Posted 29 March 2015 - 11:09 AM

A thought just crossed my mind. If it's unlikely that a breeding population of darters or shiners won't survive due to predation, what if in addition to adding darters and Cyprinids, I also added some new forage to the quarry as well, that way the bass would be more focused on the larger forage species rather than expending energy pursuing the small darters which wouldn't be as much food. For forage species I was think something like golden shiners and/or gizzard Shad. Although, I've read that gizzard Shad can some how mess up food web so does anyone have any experience with them?
Sean Phillips - Pine Creek Watershed - Allegheny River Drainage

#27 Evan P

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Posted 29 March 2015 - 12:11 PM

Golden Shiners would be a safe bet. Spotfins would be good, and sand/mimic shiners reproduce like crazy, so they would make for good fish-mouth fodder. Maybe consider some cage aquaculture to size everything up before release to limit predation.


3,000-4,000 Gallon Pond Full of all sorts of spawning fishes! http://forum.nanfa.org/index.php/topic/13811-3560-gallon-native-fish-pond/page-3 
 

#28 Moontanman

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Posted 29 March 2015 - 06:20 PM

You could limit the numbers of flathead catfish, from what I understand they will not reproduce in ponds... 


Michael

Life is the poetry of the universe
Love is the poetry of life

#29 Sean Phillips

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Posted 29 March 2015 - 06:41 PM

You could limit the numbers of flathead catfish, from what I understand they will not reproduce in ponds...


I thought they were prolific as heck? I'll have to look into it.
Sean Phillips - Pine Creek Watershed - Allegheny River Drainage

#30 smbass

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 11:00 AM

This is very interesting and there are small fish species that will persist in Lake like habitats. Some of the suggestions you have gotten were very good ones, logperch are a great idea. Also johnny darters will persist in lakes as well. Iowa darters are also a great suggestion and it might be worth looking into if they could be legally acquired and stocked or what steps maybe would need to be taken to do so. As far as Cyprinids that might work... you say there is a lot of vegetation and clear water so my mind goes straight to blacknose and blackchin shiners but these likely would also require the same checking out the legal steps like the Iowa darters. (I might know a source for all three of those of captive raised stock  :biggrin: ) Both shiners are probably protected in PA just like Ohio. I have often wondered though if they could be established in clear quarries that had some vegetation.

 

Other minnows that should work if there is a lot of cover would be bluntnose minnow, and possibly spotfin shiners. Also golden shiners will use the vegetation and should persist if enough cover is available. I would not use fatheads even though they may work because although found in your area now they probably are not native in that area, they just have become really widespread due to bait releases. Last one I would check the distribution out on and see if they are in your area is northern redbelly dace. I don't know if these would work but I know their habitat use is quite different from other Chrosomus sp. I am not sure about their PA distribution and if they are in the watershed your talking about.

 

You could try to diversify the sunfish community by adding warmouth, rockbass, more pumpkinseeds, and smallmouth bass. Of all of these I would think the warmouth may have the best chance of establishing a small population. In presence of bluegill they persist in small numbers if a lot of vegetation is present but never become a dominant part of the community. Based off your initial list I can tell this is in the Allegheny River basin. There are old records of Longear too but they do not do well in the presence of largemouth and bluegill and are also protected in PA probably won't work and more red tape.

 

Paddlefish are also a common stocking in quarries and although they do not reproduce they do seem to grow and persist for long time periods. What Matt pointed out is a great idea and it is worth contacting them because they may know what the legal requirements would be for your area. They just did the same thing with a dive quarry near me.

 

A few musky or walleye might be interesting but I would not expect them to reproduce in a quarry so they would be a novelty much like the few northern pike already present. These both are available commercially but as already stated local stock would be most ideal if possible.

 

Yellow perch also are a good idea and likely to persist and reproduce.

 

Also longnose gar are present in the Allegheny and might make an intriguing addition. Might reproduce minimally but would also be more of a novelty and you would probably have to catch your own. 

 

With anything you would have to catch yourself you need to make sure there are no legal issues with acquiring your own local stock if legally captured and transported to the site. This is a very interesting project and could be a lot of fun but you just need to be cautious and calculated about what you do. I have done a few stockings like this but they go much better when you have an empty water body to start. It is difficult establishing new species into an existing community. Some of these ideas may work well and some may completely fail but you won't know without trying.


Brian J. Zimmerman

Gambier, Ohio - Kokosing River Drainage


#31 Matt DeLaVega

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 05:06 PM

Channel and flathead usually do not breed in ponds. At least with the channels, and possibly the flatheads it is because of lack of spawning structure. The correct sized cavities within 4-6 feet of the surface. This quarry may provide ample spawning area. What may be different with flatheads may be the lack of riffles. Juvenile flatheads seem to pretend to be madtoms for a period in their growth. From about 2-6 inches the only place that I have ever found them is in riffles. This may just be from my limited experience, or maybe they require this.


The member formerly known as Skipjack


#32 Moontanman

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 06:05 PM

Channel and flathead usually do not breed in ponds. At least with the channels, and possibly the flatheads it is because of lack of spawning structure. The correct sized cavities within 4-6 feet of the surface. This quarry may provide ample spawning area. What may be different with flatheads may be the lack of riffles. Juvenile flatheads seem to pretend to be madtoms for a period in their growth. From about 2-6 inches the only place that I have ever found them is in riffles. This may just be from my limited experience, or maybe they require this.

 

 

I have been told, and i am not sure how accurate this is, that flatheads do not spawn in still water, they require a current... 


Michael

Life is the poetry of the universe
Love is the poetry of life

#33 Matt DeLaVega

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 06:22 PM

 

 

I have been told, and i am not sure how accurate this is, that flatheads do not spawn in still water, they require a current... 

I would not doubt that, but I am not sure that it the current or the spawning habitat. I simply do not know enough to say. People say that channels will not spawn in ponds, but, I am here to tell you that they do. It is happening in my pond unfortunately. So I am not sure if it is habitat with flatheads or moving water. Like I mentioned, it seems like the juveniles have a riffle phase.


The member formerly known as Skipjack


#34 Sean Phillips

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Posted 31 March 2015 - 06:01 AM

This is very interesting and there are small fish species that will persist in Lake like habitats. Some of the suggestions you have gotten were very good ones, logperch are a great idea. Also johnny darters will persist in lakes as well. Iowa darters are also a great suggestion and it might be worth looking into if they could be legally acquired and stocked or what steps maybe would need to be taken to do so. As far as Cyprinids that might work... you say there is a lot of vegetation and clear water so my mind goes straight to blacknose and blackchin shiners but these likely would also require the same checking out the legal steps like the Iowa darters. (I might know a source for all three of those of captive raised stock  :biggrin: ) Both shiners are probably protected in PA just like Ohio. I have often wondered though if they could be established in clear quarries that had some vegetation.
 
Other minnows that should work if there is a lot of cover would be bluntnose minnow, and possibly spotfin shiners. Also golden shiners will use the vegetation and should persist if enough cover is available. I would not use fatheads even though they may work because although found in your area now they probably are not native in that area, they just have become really widespread due to bait releases. Last one I would check the distribution out on and see if they are in your area is northern redbelly dace. I don't know if these would work but I know their habitat use is quite different from other Chrosomus sp. I am not sure about their PA distribution and if they are in the watershed your talking about.
 
You could try to diversify the sunfish community by adding warmouth, rockbass, more pumpkinseeds, and smallmouth bass. Of all of these I would think the warmouth may have the best chance of establishing a small population. In presence of bluegill they persist in small numbers if a lot of vegetation is present but never become a dominant part of the community. Based off your initial list I can tell this is in the Allegheny River basin. There are old records of Longear too but they do not do well in the presence of largemouth and bluegill and are also protected in PA probably won't work and more red tape.
 
Paddlefish are also a common stocking in quarries and although they do not reproduce they do seem to grow and persist for long time periods. What Matt pointed out is a great idea and it is worth contacting them because they may know what the legal requirements would be for your area. They just did the same thing with a dive quarry near me.
 
A few musky or walleye might be interesting but I would not expect them to reproduce in a quarry so they would be a novelty much like the few northern pike already present. These both are available commercially but as already stated local stock would be most ideal if possible.
 
Yellow perch also are a good idea and likely to persist and reproduce.
 
Also longnose gar are present in the Allegheny and might make an intriguing addition. Might reproduce minimally but would also be more of a novelty and you would probably have to catch your own. 
 
With anything you would have to catch yourself you need to make sure there are no legal issues with acquiring your own local stock if legally captured and transported to the site. This is a very interesting project and could be a lot of fun but you just need to be cautious and calculated about what you do. I have done a few stockings like this but they go much better when you have an empty water body to start. It is difficult establishing new species into an existing community. Some of these ideas may work well and some may completely fail but you won't know without trying.

Thanks for that, Brian ! I'll have to look into some of the species. Northern Redbelly Dace are threatened in PA so sadly they're not an option, though spotfins would make for an interesting fish. As far as breeding structure for catfish, we're planning on constructing spawning boxes to add for this spring to get the catfish numbers up. Longnose Gar would make an interesting addition as well. I'll have to look into all the species you mentioned.
Sean Phillips - Pine Creek Watershed - Allegheny River Drainage

#35 smbass

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Posted 31 March 2015 - 09:23 AM

Your welcome and if you do decide to make an effort to see what sort of permission or permits you would need to stock captive bred stock of those three listed species that I mentioned (Blacknose Shiner Notropis heterolepis, Blackchin Shiner Notropis heterodon, and Iowa Darter Etheostoma exile) let me know. If you don't have funds for purchase I might be willing to make a donation... If you find out it is just too much paper work then I'm sure some of those others would be interesting too... Johnny, logperch, spotfin, bluntnose, and longnose gar would be where I would put my effort. The paddlefish thing seems like a very good idea and not to mention probably popular with the divers.


Brian J. Zimmerman

Gambier, Ohio - Kokosing River Drainage


#36 Sean Phillips

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  • Allegheny River Drainage, Southwest PA

Posted 31 March 2015 - 10:35 AM

Your welcome and if you do decide to make an effort to see what sort of permission or permits you would need to stock captive bred stock of those three listed species that I mentioned (Blacknose Shiner Notropis heterolepis, Blackchin Shiner Notropis heterodon, and Iowa Darter Etheostoma exile) let me know. If you don't have funds for purchase I might be willing to make a donation... If you find out it is just too much paper work then I'm sure some of those others would be interesting too... Johnny, logperch, spotfin, bluntnose, and longnose gar would be where I would put my effort. The paddlefish thing seems like a very good idea and not to mention probably popular with the divers.


Looking it up on the PFBC website, it appears that it is legal to own/transport/stock Blacknose shiners, but not blackchins or north Redbelly dace. Their are permits for blackchins and redbellies but they're for research and not recreational use which stocking a private quarry would be considered and therefor is not a valid enough reason for them to issue a permit. The paddlefish are very popular with divers, we always go to a quarry (gilboa) in northwest Ohio once or twice a year and that place is full of 4-6' ones which we're always glued to :). I might shoot an email to the commision to see if it'd be legal to stock some.
Sean Phillips - Pine Creek Watershed - Allegheny River Drainage

#37 Sean Phillips

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Posted 31 March 2015 - 10:53 AM

So as of now, these are the species I'm going to try to catch to stock the quarry with, though I'm still open to more fish suggestions and am probably going to add more to this list as time goes on.

-Pumpkinseeds (more of them)
-Rock Bass
-Smallmouth Bass
-Rainbow, Brown, or Brook Trout (Brook would be my first choice)
-Yellow Perch
-(possibly) Walleye
-Logperch
-Johnny Darters
-Rainbow Darters
-Bluntnose Minnows
-Golden Shiners
-Spotfin Shiners
-(possibly) Blacknose Shiners
-(possibly) Creek Chubs
-Yellow Bullheads (more of them)
-Channel Catfish (more of them)
-(possibly) Flathead Catfish
-Paddlefish (if the PFBC approves it)
-Longnose Gar

Other things we'll do with the quarry is add some catfish spawning boxes and add a few more structures for fry to hide such as cinder block pyramids. That is a long list of fish and I can't guarantee I can get every fish on the list even though I'd love to stock all those and maybe even more! Unfortunately, I'm the only one who dives here regularly that has a big enough vehicle to haul all these fish so I can only take what I can fit in a 20 gallon Rubbermaid tub as well as a larger container I'll be investing in for this stocking (I'll probably use it as a pond when I'm done with this project) that will be 100 gallons+. Does anybody have any good transportation ideas? My plan now is to catch the fish the day before diving/stocking and keep them in the back of my truck overnight in those tubs with heavy aeration, then drive up to the quarry (about a 1 hour drive) in the morning to stock the fish. I have a feeling most fish will survive, especially the catfish , but I'm more worried about any shiners or darters I stock since they tend to be more sensitive to stress.
Sean Phillips - Pine Creek Watershed - Allegheny River Drainage

#38 Matt DeLaVega

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Posted 31 March 2015 - 05:08 PM

Don't spawn the catfish. The occasional spawn that they do pull off in a rock crevice will be plenty. If you put out boxes, I fear that you will be overpopulated fairly quickly. Or only add spawning boxes for one season every few years.

 

Also, before you add more predators, it would be smart to maybe start with the minnows and darters the first year or so, that will give them a chance to get established.

 

 How about crayfish and or grass shrimp?


The member formerly known as Skipjack


#39 Sean Phillips

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Posted 31 March 2015 - 05:58 PM

Don't spawn the catfish. The occasional spawn that they do pull off in a rock crevice will be plenty. If you put out boxes, I fear that you will be overpopulated fairly quickly. Or only add spawning boxes for one season every few years.
 
Also, before you add more predators, it would be smart to maybe start with the minnows and darters the first year or so, that will give them a chance to get established.
 
 How about crayfish and or grass shrimp?


Crayfish are illegal to transport and sell in PA now, law just got passed in January. Grass shrimp may be something so consider though. How does one go about catching them?
Sean Phillips - Pine Creek Watershed - Allegheny River Drainage

#40 Matt DeLaVega

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Posted 31 March 2015 - 06:39 PM

Dipnetting in vegetation. I think they are common in weedy lake Erie bays and marshes.


The member formerly known as Skipjack





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