Why Does Everyone Hate Invasives?

You done good. I would've thought that the Smithsonian site would have it, too...

Blind Luck is generally my only avenue.

Editing to add a link to an article on Hooved Rats for invertkurt-
http://discovermagaz...3/mar/featdeer/

Thanks Lorax!!! I've been wanting to read that for a while now and my blind luck wasn't helping me much.

Lorax,

Looks like you have a beautiful property to play with!

Have you tried a spraying right at fall dormancy? This is extremely effective for dealing with Phrag. The transport of the glypho to the rhizomes seems to be the key in spraying it successfully. With that in mind, this is one of the best times, as the rhizomes are extracting and absorbing cellular goodies from the photic zone, storing up for the winter and then to burst again the next spring.

If patches are super huge, you can cut/mow/whip it in August so it's easier to spray without blowing everything up in the wind. You will want to remove all the duff you cut off to do this successfully (you'll use way less product). You could then go thatch a roof or something fun like that

This also works well for the shrubby invaders if glypho (or Rodeo) is your only option (like buckthorn, honeysuckle, autumn olive). I like to hack them back in July so they'll resprout nicely, and they won't get another berry off. I wait until everything else has gone dormant, you'll get about a 2 week window with them in October. And then spray spray spray. IF you happen to miss them, they're then also primed for leaf out, which will occurr 2 weeks earlier than everything else. This is also a good time to go back over it and see if anything was missed.

What is really successful for the shrubby stuff, though, is Garlon. You can typically get this at Feed Supply Stores. We've been making dabbers that grab the stems... Something like this:

http://www.for-wild....nload/tongs.pdf

It only takes a grab (like the glove-of-death treatment) and they're toast. Uses very little product and the treatment goes fast. Actually, that whole article is great..

http://www.for-wild....oundupmyth.html

That all being said... This is only the start. I'd like to get into the mechanisms of invasions and some thoughts about other posts when I have some more time. But I thought I'd unpair that information from this post, as it will be a lot to chew on, is more theoretical, and this specifically addresses your current issue.

Hope you find this useful,
Todd

After that last picture Lorax, australis creeps up out of the low lined areas?

Thank-you for noticing farmertodd. That last property is beautiful and I don't do anything to it other than try my best to keep noxious weeds and invasives out of it. It is so hard keeping up because we're not there all the time and people from the big cities with snow mobiles, quads, and dirt bikes come up and pay no attention to "keep out" signs and they definitely don't stick to our trails. Along with them, they bring seeds embedded in their treads. I'm convinced that's how I got hit up with Hieracium aurantiacum, Centaurea maculosa, Polygonum cuspidatum, Circisum vulgare, and Coronilla varia. Maddening at times as they crop up all along the paths created by trespassers. As fast as I can block their entrance to my property, they create a new entrance but I am slowing them down and I think I have them totally blocked off from getting to the area where they can see the little lake and wetlands which is good. If they can't see it, they won't be trying to get back there any more.

Garlon 4 RTU I've been using on Rhamnus spp. for a while. I like it because of the dye. Helps me keep track of where I stopped and left off when painting stumps. Garlon 3 worked, just not as well as 4. I've found Lonicera spp to be rather shallow rooted so if I can get it hooked up to my riding lawn mower, sometimes it just pulls out of the ground. Sometimes it doesn't. Depends on whether I rock back and forth or not. Elaeagnus umbellata is not one I've had to deal with so bite your tongue please. Do Elaeagnus angustifolia, Quercus acutissima, Ulmus pumila, and Acer platanoides count? I've learned how to kill those well. Practice makes perfect. Incidentally, I'm somewhat struggling with Ailanthus altissima. Have you any pearls of wisdom to share with me? I can't get it to die without repeatedly going after it. Anything new out there?

Glove of death I've used successfully on the undersides of Hedera helix as well as on other undesirables that have popped up between desirables. I found I can use latex gloves with those cloth gloves that stamp collectors use over the top. Chemical used depends on what I'm trying to kill. What are you using? The place where I used to buy the cloth gloves closed down and I only have a few pairs left.

I don't work for this company but here's a little tool that is chemical free that I highly recommend anyone struggling with invasive woodies should break down, bite the bullet, and purchase.
Meet Mr. Weed Wrench-
http://www.canonbal.org/weed.html
I use a light model. My husband who is over 200 lbs uses the medium to take out what I physically can't get. At my size, I can literally get 1.5" trees out of the ground by myself and chemical free.

I'm familiar with the RoundUp myth. Nice that you shared a link to it.

Love your link to that self-watering tongs of death! That is one of the few organizations that I belong to. I love the Wild Ones... how did I miss that article? Way cool. I'd love to see a photo of the dabbers you are making if you are in a position to post a photo.

You could then go thatch a roof or something fun like that

When it warms up a little bit, I'll go take a few photos. We're not talking enough duff to thatch a roof but more like enough to thatch the roofs of an entire village.

Have you tried a spraying right at fall dormancy? This is extremely effective for dealing with Phrag. The transport of the glypho to the rhizomes seems to be the key in spraying it successfully. With that in mind, this is one of the best times, as the rhizomes are extracting and absorbing cellular goodies from the photic zone, storing up for the winter and then to burst again the next spring.

I've tried test spots during that little window of opportunity when the natives are dormant but I'm missing the timing. No matter how carefully I watch weather reports attempting to apply when air temps are optimal, seems as if I always get hit with temps which render glypho ineffective. I think I made it mad when that happened. I planned on trying that again. Sooner or later I'll be able to capitalize on their extended growing season AND in sync with the air temps. Very big question for you regarding this-

If patches are super huge, you can cut/mow/whip it in August

Patches are super huge. A tractor will sink out there and barring the purchase of a hydrosaw ($$$), what would you recommend please? I'm at a loss other than a hand scythe. Once I post some photos, you will see why I was considering a hydrosaw. Thoughts were I could get out there when the swamp is frozen so I wouldn't sink. Very difficult for me maneuvering out there. It's turned into a graveyard for boots. One boot here, one boot there, here a boot, there a boot, everywhere a boot. They get sucked off of me and sometimes I can't find them. There must be at least 4 out there right now, maybe 5. Here are some thoughts I've had of how I might be able to gain access to the area when it isn't frozen and if you believe them to be blond, please jump, please jump in and say so... I've long ago lost my pride in this arena and will try just about anything. Here goes- I was thinking I could get three pallets and could nail plywood to the tops of them to provide me with a level surface from which to work. There's a store in town that gets in lots of crates that have thick styrofoam protecting the contents. I was thinking I could cut styrofoam to fit the undersides of the pallets. Thoughts being I could clear an area in front of me and position a pallet from which to work to clear the next area to place another pallet working from the last pallet and so forth and so on. What are your thoughts on this?

And farmertodd, I'd love for you to have time to get into the mechanisms of invasion in other posts. I learn an incredible amount from people who are "doing".

Hey natureman187, that's what I would call a transition area. To the left is a lower lying acid bog and to the right and just behind that stand is a coniferous woodland then forest. Hard to tell from the photos. I actually have a quaking bog on the property up there. If you have never experienced a quaking bog, you haven't lived yet. Just teasing but you will walk out with a very healthy respect for why people and animals have lost their lives in quaking bogs. The australis photographed is not creeping per se. It's coexisting nicely would be a better way to describe it. That particular stand you see hasn't done much in the way of expansion in at least 10 years that I've been watching it and I have old 35mm photographs to compare. It has shifted a little bit toward the south. Possibly due to extreme drought conditions.

As fast as I can block their entrance to my property, they create a new entrance but I am slowing them down and I think I have them totally blocked off from getting to the area where they can see the little lake and wetlands which is good. If they can't see it, they won't be trying to get back there any more.

A bunch of roofing nails or some homemade spike strips will do the same thing.

homemade spike strips

Worked for me!

Incidentally, I'm somewhat struggling with Ailanthus altissima. Have you any pearls of wisdom to share with me? I can't get it to die without repeatedly going after it. Anything new out there?

Love it or leave it, this is when I bust out the 2,4-D. I'll lop and stump treat with a squirt bottle, and then put a baggie over it with a rubber band. There comes a time when one form of ecological damage outweighs another. And if done mindfully, you can seriously minimize the risks.

Chemical used depends on what I'm trying to kill. What are you using?

I've only ever used it with glypho.

Love your link to that self-watering tongs of death! That is one of the few organizations that I belong to. I love the Wild Ones... how did I miss that article? Way cool. I'd love to see a photo of the dabbers you are making if you are in a position to post a photo.

I started a chapter here in Toledo two years ago. Was a member of the Ann Arbor chapter before that. Great organization folks, if you're interested in getting into native plant gardening. This indirectly and sometimes directly effects native fishes!

Patches are super huge. A tractor will sink out there and barring the purchase of a hydrosaw ($$$), what would you recommend please?

I'm not sure what a hydrosaw is. This is something like what we use for light brush:

http://www.stihlusa....mers/FS350.html

I'm not sure what they cost. They make really fast work of things, and are great if you're managing for early succession, and need to whip back some dogwoods that are in too wet an area to get your mower.

I was thinking I could get three pallets and could nail plywood to the tops of them to provide me with a level surface from which to work. There's a store in town that gets in lots of crates that have thick styrofoam protecting the contents. I was thinking I could cut styrofoam to fit the undersides of the pallets. Thoughts being I could clear an area in front of me and position a pallet from which to work to clear the next area to place another pallet working from the last pallet and so forth and so on. What are your thoughts on this?

I surveyed mussels in Lake Erie marshes this year and the only thing that kept me on top of that meter deep muck were aluminum snowshoes. Once you get used to them, you can all but run on the soft stuff. And they're amazing agile even in twiggy stuff like dogwood thickets. I realize it's another expense, but when you can't get to something, that gets expensive later, either in time or materials and equipment.

And farmertodd, I'd love for you to have time to get into the mechanisms of invasion in other posts. I learn an incredible amount from people who are "doing".

I'm working on it tomorrow. This will help me get my proposal out

I don't know what to do about the off-road rec folks, but I like Martin and Tom's suggestions (piano wire? just kidding! ) If you're on clay, the compaction they create continues the cycle of degradation. I've seen them do some good though in high disturbance plant communites (like lupine or sand twig rush wet prairie). Just be glad it ain't horses.

Todd

I'm not sure what a hydrosaw is. This is something like what we use for light brush:

http://www.stihlusa....mers/FS350.html

I'm not sure what they cost. They make really fast work of things, and are great if you're managing for early succession,

The FS350 is pretty pricey. I used a similar setup last year with my FS90 on a job for some folks that wanted the face of their couple acre pond cleared. It was loaded with both australis and cattail of some sort. That setup does alright for new growth but when you get in the thick of it the reeds want to wrap around the blade instead of getting cut by it. A chain saw turned sideways has no trouble ripping through it. I used a 20 inch and it doesn't take too long, just a bit heavy. I didn't have time to experiment but hedge trimmers may be a lighter solution. The HS81 runs about 250$.

No problem with horses up north. Homemade spike strips? I've heard people mention these and believe I understand the concept but very concerned about some dirt bike zooming through and hitting that and wiping out in the equivalent of a bed of nails. These morons take their children with them and I've seen idiots out there with a Dad and not one but two kiddies on the same quad- one crotched in front with the "adult" steering around the kid and one kid behind hanging on for dear life. That area isn't exactly populated and sometimes hours can go by before you even hear the engine of a vehicle out on the main road. Don't get me wrong, the thought of stringing up all the people getting back there by the gonads brings a big fat smile to my face but I don't want anyone getting hurt. Back to horses, would love to see horse meat sold in restaurants like it is throughout Europe and Asia. They can start with the horses here in IL that cut through this property to get to trails. "Oh, is this private property" "Yup". The same ones still cut through. Doesn't happen more than a few times a year thankfully.

Not opposed to using chemicals for just the reasons stated but I prefer to use them sparingly. There are some people who have been having better success destroying Ailanthus root systems using Tordon. I might try that product this coming year. Fortunately, I don't have a lot of Ailanthus.

Sorry about the mix up. When I asked what you were using, I wasn't curious about the chemicals you used as that varies based on the foe but more so the actual glove you were using. I was buying boxes of light weight cloth gloves that I wore over a latex glove from a store that dealt in collectibles such as stamps and coins. They went out of business. I haven't been able to find any of the light weight cloth gloves that slip on so easily over a latex glove and I have only a few left out of a box of 50. I wanted disposable gloves but anything that would work that is cheap would suffice.

A hydrosaw is about the wetlands equivalent of a terrestrial hydroax. They sell for around 50k and up but when I was somewhat halfway seriously poking around, the best price I could find for a used one was around 19.5k (smelling salts please) and it had a lot of hours on it. Thought being if I could get a decent price on a used one, I could turn around and re-sell it to some other desperate soul. I've never seen that specific piece of heavy equipment available for short term lease. You can pick up backhoes for around 1k delivered to the site for a set period of time and lots of other neat toys but I've never been able to find a hydrosaw for rent. 1k would be worth it to me... not darn near 20k when there's a very real risk I wouldn't be able to sell it without taking a huge loss. I don't think there's a big market out there for them so chances were pretty good I would end up eating the cost which made me very nervous for that kind of money.

I've not heard of anyone using the Stihl product you mentioned but maybe I have and am not making the connection? That looks affordable and I bet it's around $500 with the added benefit that I could afford to keep it without having to worry about trying to re-sell it after I was done with it. I can do $500, can't do 20k. There's a Stihl dealer over in Antioch so I can buzz over there and check them out. I wonder if Forestry Suppliers has them?

Never thought of trying snowshoes. Brilliant idea. I found them in prices ranging from $50 on up to $350+. I've just spent about an hour online looking at snowshoes and for all practical purposes they are all now starting to look alike. How does this cheap pair look-
http://cgi.ebay.com/...1QQcmdZViewItem

You started a Wild Ones chapter! Way to go.
I believe that going native directly benefits native fish. The quality of any wetland is but no greater than the quality of the associated upland.

editing to add, natureman187- what's pricey for the FS350? I looked online and found an FS550 that looked to be more appropriate for the reeds. No pricing available. Figured that would be around $1,000 and that's ok with me if it works. I have an arborists chain saw- Stihl MS200 T 16". I took the chainsaw classes a while ago and can now use mine well enough and am familiar with its limitations. I thought about trying it but was concerned about the water and my chainsaw was pretty expensive.

editing to add, natureman187- what's pricey for the FS350? I looked online and found an FS550 that looked to be more appropriate for the reeds. No pricing available. Figured that would be around $1,000 and that's ok with me if it works. I have an arborists chain saw- Stihl MS200 T 16". I took the chainsaw classes a while ago and can now use mine well enough and am familiar with its limitations. I thought about trying it but was concerned about the water and my chainsaw was pretty expensive.

I looked at a FS350 and runs around 900$. I haven't seen a 550 yet.
Yes, them saws can't swim I found it safer for me and the saw to work in the water and work up onto the bank.

Hi Lorax,

The ebay link didn't work for some reason. I don't know if the Forum chewed it up or if there was just more to it.

I did a little poking around because I didn't think the FS brushcutters were so expensive. I would still check with your dealer, but I did run across this.

http://www.newarkmow...VehicleID=28256

That's for a FS550. So it can only be less expensive for less HP.

Todd

The link to eBay was to a $50 pair of yellow aluminum snowshoes. They seemed as good as any but figured I'd post a link to the eBay listing to see what you folk thought. Sorry it didn't work. I didn't realize there were so many styles of snowshoes from which to choose. I thought it was going to be a simple google search but I came up with more selections than my pea brain was in the mood to deal with. That listing closed but I added the photo of another pair that is in the same price bracket. See if they look ok please.

I love my chainsaw. It was my very first power tool. I had never been interested in anything like that before and I'm sort of attached to it. It's a perfect size and weight and although I thought about taking a few swipes, I really was concerned about the water. I can handle the price of the FS550. What are my options? A used hydrosaw with a ton of hours that I might not be able to re-sell that would sit here on the property racking up code violations? What I am most concerned about right now with any of the Stihl FS models would be natureman87's comments, "when you get in the thick of it the reeds want to wrap around the blade instead of getting cut by it". Granted, a smaller tool was used but I don't exactly relish the thought of ending up projectile if one of these things wraps around the reeds.

See if they look ok please.

I have a pair like that, but they are not really good for a 350# 6'2" man

My buddy 120# 5'5" uses them with no problems.

I have large plastic ones that look more like a tennis racket, those work well for me.


Also the spike strips i made are close to commercial ones like the cops use only flatten tires. no bed of nails.
YMMV,

Tom

I didn't realize so many people were using snowshoes to be able to maneuver around in wetlands. Don't fully understand the differences in design but if your buddy is using a pair similar to what I posted, I'll just go for that style. I'm about the same size as him. My goal would be to try to stay upright while not losing any more boots. I always panic when I do a face plant and end up with that crap in my eye sockets, mouth, and nostrils. Last question, looks as if a type of snowshoe similar to what I posted a photo of can be purchased from eBay for around $50-$75 new plus the cost of shipping and handling. That Tubbs brand you posted a photo of can be had for around $125 and up plus the cost of shipping and handling. In looking at the brand I found, it appears the material attached to the aluminum frame is some sort of a heavy tarp while in looking at the Tubbs brand it appears the material is some sort of heavy duty plastic. Perhaps this is the difference in cost? You think it's worth it to go to the Tubbs brand?

Husband said yes to the spike strips, I'm not entirely sold on the concept yet. How can something flatten tires of ATVs and dirtbikes without hurting some dumb joy-riding kid if they flip and end up on the spike strip?

I can have the FS550 for my Mother's Day present if I want. Still concerned with any of the Stihl FS models because of natureman87's comments, "when you get in the thick of it the reeds want to wrap around the blade instead of getting cut by it". Has anyone used any of the larger HP Stihl models on Phragmites? What happened?

Back to gloves- a friend of mine suggested asking funeral homes where they buy the white light weight cloth gloves the pallbearers wear. She used to buy the gloves she used from the same place as me so now we're both out.

A stationary spike strip will not catch the vehicle, just puncture the tire.

Sorry I was quiet the last couple days. Was tied up.

Tom, where did you get the plastic snowshoes? That might be exactly what we need to outfit our undergrad help inexpensively.

Lorax, the snowshoes will work great, that's pretty much exactly what I was using around 200 lbs. Hopefully the auction isn't over.

As for getting it caught up in the blade, it won't kick. There's a pin that will shear if there's enough force for it to do that. Part of Natureman's issue may have been youthful male exuberance with a power tool

You will get stuff that will wrap, but you STOP when you see it start, before it 1) jams or 2) shears.

I've cut Phrag with it, I got some wrap, but I just kept up with it. What was worse was when I went through a massive stand of multiflora rose covered in oriental bittersweet. That was one nasty day. It kept rolling up on the blade. Was really time intensive, on top of having pokers all through it.

What you do have to watch out is when you set it down... It can flip up in your face if the angle is such that the motor is lower than the blade. I about gave myself a lopsidded smile like this once.

Basically, you can hurt yourself with anything if you aren't careful with it.

You might also want to talk to your local Stihl dealer. In fact, I'd go beyond suggesting it, and go straight for "you should"

I had a comment earlier... We have one of the little chainsaws too, and I love mine as well. We named it "Lil' Girl" after her big Farm Boss brothers "Bubba" and "Hildy". The maintenance manager can't stand that we gave them real names.

Todd

I came across these a while back while looking for small snowshoes for silt. Mudders. Not exactly cheap and have not yet decided to spend the bucks for them.

Tom, where did you get the plastic snowshoes? That might be exactly what we need to outfit our undergrad help inexpensively.

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