Why Does Everyone Hate Invasives?

Being as your member # is lower than mine, I'll try to behave. I said I'll try

And no more Britney Spears! (even though she is an invasive species)

Actually it was Monty Python, except for the "Oops" part

Was I saying something? I forgot what it was.

Good to find this thread. Actually, very good to find this thread.

Incredibly, one of the reasons why I registered here was to learn how to identify the exotics beyond koi and goldfish that ding dongs routinely release into ponds and other bodies of water around here.

To those who wanted to know what the big deal is with invasives, this is my personal opinion-
Non native carp destroy vegetation in natural bodies of water just like they did in my pond. Non native carp muddy the bottoms of bodies of water. There are fish in natural ponds and lakes that hunt by sight. The reduced visibility ultimately creates a big problem for native fish that hunt by sight. Additionally, non native carp will eat frog and toad eggs. Actually, I believe they eat all amphibian eggs. This has become an issue across North America where herp populations are declining. A classic example of exotics outcompeting natives. The big deal is that every natural ecosystem is balanced in such a way that each naturally occurring species there ekes out a narrow living. Every introduced species competes with those naturally occurring species and the resources are thus divided too thinly.

I, too, want exotics of both flora and fauna out of my waters. Red-eared sliders, rusty crayfish, earthworms (don't gasp, yes it's true and none are indigenous to my area since the glacial retreat over 10,000 years ago), and carp are all species I know to humanely destroy. They wreak havoc in our fragile ecosystems and their existence is anything but in the best interests of public health.

I am in my infancy beginning to learn to identify invasive aquatic plants and am barely holding my own in the identification, control, management, and eradication of invasive marginal species.

I've found some help for myself here-
http://www.nativefish.org/
http://www.invasivespeciesinfo.gov/
Unfortunately, I'm going to need more help than what a website can offer in the years to come as I am going to begin giving it a go restoring the wetlands on my property. There were two ponds here that supported life. They were encroached by Phragmites australis, Typha angustifolia, Phalaris arundinacea. and Lythrum salicaria. Myriophyllum spicatum and Eichhornia crassipes are swear words to me.

I anxiously look forward to any information anyone will be able to provide me with to help myself. The hydrology here is totally out of whack and could no longer support any fish. This coming summer is when I will begin addressing my wetlands and my ultimate goal is to restore those two ponds over the next 5-10 years.

Hi Lorax. Glad to hear of your interest in this topic.

Here are some links that may be helpful:
http://www.fws.gov/species/
http://www.invasivespeciesinfo.gov/
http://www.nationalp...ed fish species
http://www.afsifs.vt.edu/
http://www.actionbio...simberloff.html

Good luck.

Good to find this thread. Actually, very good to find this thread.

Incredibly, one of the reasons why I registered here was to learn how to identify the exotics beyond koi and goldfish that ding dongs routinely release into ponds and other bodies of water around here.

To those who wanted to know what the big deal is with invasives, this is my personal opinion-
Non native carp destroy vegetation in natural bodies of water just like they did in my pond. Non native carp muddy the bottoms of bodies of water. There are fish in natural ponds and lakes that hunt by sight. The reduced visibility ultimately creates a big problem for native fish that hunt by sight. Additionally, non native carp will eat frog and toad eggs. Actually, I believe they eat all amphibian eggs. This has become an issue across North America where herp populations are declining. A classic example of exotics outcompeting natives. The big deal is that every natural ecosystem is balanced in such a way that each naturally occurring species there ekes out a narrow living. Every introduced species competes with those naturally occurring species and the resources are thus divided too thinly.

I, too, want exotics of both flora and fauna out of my waters. Red-eared sliders, rusty crayfish, earthworms (don't gasp, yes it's true and none are indigenous to my area since the glacial retreat over 10,000 years ago), and carp are all species I know to humanely destroy. They wreak havoc in our fragile ecosystems and their existence is anything but in the best interests of public health.

I am in my infancy beginning to learn to identify invasive aquatic plants and am barely holding my own in the identification, control, management, and eradication of invasive marginal species.

I've found some help for myself here-
http://www.nativefish.org/
http://www.invasivespeciesinfo.gov/
Unfortunately, I'm going to need more help than what a website can offer in the years to come as I am going to begin giving it a go restoring the wetlands on my property. There were two ponds here that supported life. They were encroached by Phragmites australis, Typha angustifolia, Phalaris arundinacea. and Lythrum salicaria. Myriophyllum spicatum and Eichhornia crassipes are swear words to me.

I anxiously look forward to any information anyone will be able to provide me with to help myself. The hydrology here is totally out of whack and could no longer support any fish. This coming summer is when I will begin addressing my wetlands and my ultimate goal is to restore those two ponds over the next 5-10 years.

I was familiar with all of the sites except http://www.afsifs.vt.edu/
That's a nice find for someone like me. Thank you for posting it.

I also found an area here with photos. Very nice.

We're going to start by collapsing drain tiles on the property. Problem is locating them since they've been down there screwing with my hydrology for around a hundred years. I will admit, I'm overwhelmed and getting frustrated with my lack of knowledge and experience so am going to try to go at this slowly and methodically. I'm just one little person but I truly want to do my best to clean up my property. Sort of wishing there were others around me who were even interested in cleaning up but there aren't which pushed me to the Internet.

There's one really nice publication out there that I am going to read again before spring hits if anyone else is interested-
Lakescaping for Wildlife and Water Quality by Carol Henderson
I think I'd be interested in more restoration publications.

I've been dealing with the uplands areas for years and now have a decent herp population. Very exciting to me. Never saw a salamander on this property until I started cleaning up. I attribute the dramatic increase in herps to the ongoing removal of terrestrial invasives, trapping of feral cats, and the discontinuation of our lawn service for the area directly around our home. No more chemicals unless absolutely necessary. It's hard drastically reducing one's dependency on chemicals. At least for me it was. I think what was even harder for me personally was trapping and destruction of the feral cats. My husband is a birder and had no problems with the process but I did.

As an interesting aside to all of this, there's reason to believe that Australis phragmites is a native reed to North America whose range has been slowly expanding in response to a changing climate (not just warming, but changing). The best evidence to support this is found in Atlantic coast salt marshes, where the northward expansion of this reed and other species appears to be a linked phenomenon. This expansion would include Fundulus luciae, the spotfin killifish, which was never found (or at least noticed) north of Long Island until 1981 when it was found in Massachusetts in a Narragansett Bay tributary. Whatever the truth to this, A. phragmites is certainly an opportunistic plant that can take advantage of disturbed, eutrophic habitats.

May I please disagree with you and post why?

Have at him! We love a good fight here. Just keep it respectful.

I'm guessing your property was at one time agricultural, and now you're using it for some non-agricultural purpose?

Sure. This is based on my personal experience, which is part of an analysis written by Frank Nordlie in a large review article on estuarine cyprinodonts; this large-ish article is available on this forum at http://forum.nanfa.o...?showtopic=3333 as a .pdf. Basically, it involves linking the recent expansion of phragmites northward into New England at apparently the same time and place as F. luciae apparently extended its range northwards. The fish is often found in association with phragmites marshes, more so than other killifishes like F. heteroclitus. The one detail I'd forgotten before I just went back and re-read the relevant section of the article (page 43 in the article) is that the most invasive form of phragmites is a non-native haplotype, which in truth is probably what you're dealing with in Illinois.

So there's no hard proof of this linked expansion, just a series of observations by myself and others. As far as anyone knows, the northern limit of F. luciae is the Palmer River system along the MA/RI border. I tried to find them to the north along the NE coast in 1999, with no results. If someone goes back and finds luciae in, say, the Wesport River or to the east closer to New Bedford that would lend credence to this apparent relationship. Species' ranges tend to change, I think we're witnessing an acceleration of range changes.

Sorry to disappoint Irate Mormon, I’m too tired to have at anyone these days and I’d roll over before fighting. I’m a member of an orchid forum and there are a few elitists there. Needless to say, I do realize everyone loves a train wreck but I have a tendency of exiting stage left when that occurs. Life’s too short and I’d rather learn from someone like fundulus.

Fundulus, your personal observations are most probably right on target regarding the expansion of Fundulus luciae. I believe there was a time in the not too recent past where Australis phragmites (you accidentally reversed the genus and the epithet) was believed to be a native reed to North America. It was only your use of the word native associated with P. australis that I asked permission to disagree with you on. I apologize, I should have elaborated.

I whole heartedly agree with the following, “A. phragmites (P. australis) is certainly an opportunistic plant that can take advantage of disturbed, eutrophic habitats.” I do not agree that P. australis ssp. americanus (the native) is an opportunistic plant based on my personal observations.

There are those who have little familiarity with the work of Kristin Saltonstall because Phragmites isn’t high on their list of invaders. In her own words her paper is highly cited because, “There are many researchers studying the ecological impacts of Phragmites and the factors that facilitate its invasion and this work provides the conclusive evidence that they are indeed working with a non-native organism. It uses both historical (from herbaria) and modern specimens to construct a detailed picture of the genetic structure of Phragmites in North America. It also illustrates the utility of molecular techniques in identifying cryptic invaders and is the first example of such an invasion in terrestrial plants.”
http://esi-topics.co...altonstall.html

Kristin Saltonstall’s Cryptic invasion by a non-native genotype of the common reed, Phragmites australis, into North America
http://www.invasivep.../phrag/PNAS.pdf

According to samples of Phragmites sent to Cornell from my property in Northern Illinois, it is confirmed I do in fact have the aggressive non-native haplotype which you referenced however samples sent to Cornell have also confirmed that I additionally have a stand of the mild mannered non aggressive native P. australis ssp. americanus on another property. I have photos of both and did try to figure out how to share images of P. australis ssp. americanus here but was incapable of doing so. Sorry, not all that computer literate. The native stand is truly beautiful. I have personally only seen three other such stands of this quality. That being said, I suspect the Atlantic coast salt marshes are inundated with the aggressive non-native haplotype.

Plant Conservation Alliance’s Alien Plant Working Group came up with a wonderful “Least Wanted” poster that was forwarded to me earlier this year. I think you will like it-
http://www.nps.gov/p.../fact/phau1.htm

Nice overview and comparison of exotic and native Phragmites prepared by Jil Swearingen here for those who may be interested-
http://www.nps.gov/p...-powerpoint.pdf

The above ground height, density, and biomass of the exotic Phragmites is much greater than P. australis ssp. americanus hence effectively intercepting light that would otherwise be available for other species. Its roots are also significantly denser. Denser roots trap sediments resulting in a drying effect of wetlands. In addition to wreaking havoc in the environment by displaced indigenous species of both flora and fauna when wetland hydrology, structure, and function are altered; exotic Phragmites also poses a fire risk as the plant is highly flammable.
http://www.capemay.c...phragmites.html
http://www.capegazet...ites071505.html
http://www.mancheste...9BD1F5F0672.pdf
http://www.des.state...s/cp/cp-05.html
http://www.dof.virgi...-and-fire.shtml
http://www.nesec.org/hazards/Fire.cfm

To boot, I believe the non-native may be allelepathic. (Sigh) The more I learn the less I know. I look forward to the day when this plant is gone from my property.

Best,
Lauren

Lauren
I'm unfortunately to familiar with Phagmites... What control method are you using right now?

We have a variance for an asphalt shingle roof on our home as well as the separate structures. Was very uncomfortable with a cedar shake roof. We've cleared our property in such a manner as to create a fire ring in the event it goes up. We think we have enough space to be able to protect our home but we would lose my greenhouse, a kids' tree house, and a new 1.5 story storage barn because Phragmites fires burn extremely hot. One lightening strike and I suspect our appurtenant structures will go up in smoke. I have mixed emotions about this.

I attempted to hire professionals for the whole area to do a prescribed burn and none were willing to do the work for any price. The biomass generated by these plants is phenomenal. A prescribed burn would help lower our costs if we were to go for chemical eradication. It probably wouldn't affect the rhizomes but would open up the area to be able to treat the new growth more effectively. Stumbling block- independent contractors don't want the liability of any sparks from these 15'+ plants drifting with all the red oaks that hang onto their leaves in the area and all the cedar shake roofs on other homes, and yes- the plants here are in the 15- 18' range in some areas and their height has been documented. We're now dealing with acres of this plant and might as well add in the acres of Narrow Leaf Cattail which is another one that's a big problem. I called out the fire department a few times to beg them to conduct a prescribed burn for training purposes and so far no takers because of that biomass. They're concerned the area might burn for years and rightfully so. There are currently several fires still burning in Phragmites infested areas in the next county over that started from lightening strikes. Two have been burning for over a year.

Cutting them down below the water line and drowning them is not feasible from a cost stand point. We calculated the man power needed to cut it down within a week plus the water we'd have to tank in and I felt like sticking my head in my hands and crying.

I've considered buying a hydro saw. One concern is that they're very expensive and then there would be the operating expenses and costs associated with immediate follow up restoring the property by planting back more appropriate species to thwart off further invasions. I should toss in there that I'm a small person who is not all that coordinated like some of you men. It's that good old gross v. fine motor skills deal.

As you know, the plant is a hollow stemmed wetlands plant. I've been having some success with AquaMaster however I'm dealing with a few acres of this species and adjoining properties are also infested. If only I had known how rapidly the exotic Phragmites could colonize, I would have come in with the big guns years ago as opposed to focusing on the uplands. Now the entire area is infested. Although it is a contained wetlands and can't spread out any further vegetatively, these plants reproduce sexually too so seeds from plants on other areas of my property as well as seeds from plants on adjoining properties are creating a logistical nightmare.

I've found the surfactant used in AquaMaster to be appropriate for use in my wetlands area so I'm ok with using it. Actually, I now use it in place of RoundUp on upland areas of my property. Keeps my herps as safe as is possible from build ups in fatty tissues. Haven't spotted any deformed frogs in a few years and would prefer to see this trend continue.

Any suggestions? I need to clean this up before we can go in and dredge those two ponds and before a glyphosate resistant ecotype manifests itself. Wouldn't that be a kick in the teeth.

editing to correct the spelling of glyhosate to glyphosate.

Testing something, please bear with me.

I uploaded a re-sized photo of the stand of native Phragmites. Have no idea where it is but it's out there somewhere. Ok, it magically appears in the post when you click submit. Nice. This is a stand of native Phragmites. It plays nice with the other plants in the community. This particular stand is about the same expanse as it was 10 years ago. I will add another photo to help those who may be interested better see the differences between the exotic which is a rapid colonizer and the native. The non aggressive mild mannered native is a wispy plant allowing light to reach other plants.

I apologize for the poor quality of this photo as well as for all that it doesn't show. It has been re-sized so you can view it without chasing it off the screen. If the photo was better, one would have been able to see numerous other species of high quality plants growing in and around the Phragmites. Heights attained by the plants in this particular stand in situ were bet guess around 8 - 10'. Didn't have a tape measure with me.

Here's my two cents on invasives: Here in Ohio... EVERYTHING YOU SEE IS NOT NATIVE! Go outside and flip a rock. Odds are you'll find mostly sowbugs and earthworms. Both of which are invasive. They destroy natural ecosystems and then in something like a disease hits, they may not be able to fight it and then blam-o... you have nothing in that niche. I can't even imagine finding an ecosystem that didn't have one non-native or invasive member. Scary stuff.

It should be noted that some native animals do very well when invasive species show up. Deer are a big fan of disturbances, which bring invasive species, and cause deer to be invasive themselves even though they're native. Some animals change their diet to exploit new resources. Large salamanders love large earthworms and they are not native.

I do think that invasive plants are worse, all in all. Invasive plants can devastate otherwise healthy ecosystems and allow other invasive organisms to take over. Of course if it wasn't for zebra mussels Lake Erie wouldn't be so clean but... I won't get into how stupid that is.

Sorry to interrupt, but the correct nomenclature is "Phragmites australis"

Speaking of, does anyone have access to the following:?
Saltonstall, K., P.M. Peterson, and R.J. Soreng. 2004. Recognition of Phragmites australis subsp. americanus (Poaceae: Arundinoideae) in North America: evidence from morphological and genetic analyses. Sida 21(2): 683-692.

Sorry to interrupt, but the correct nomenclature is "Phragmites australis"

Speaking of, does anyone have access to the following:?
Saltonstall, K., P.M. Peterson, and R.J. Soreng. 2004. Recognition of Phragmites australis subsp. americanus (Poaceae: Arundinoideae) in North America: evidence from morphological and genetic analyses. Sida 21(2): 683-692.

Well, yeah, you can never edit yourself and I committed an inversion. And I'd be curious to see the Saltonstall et al. article which I've seen referenced several times. OK, I'll try to find it(!).

I couldn't find the article through the usual avenues (including blind luck, of course). But I tracked down Kristin Saltonstall. If anyone is truly interested, here is her contact information:

Dr. Kristin Saltonstall; Adjunct Research Scientist; Horn Point Laboratory; University of Maryland Center for Environmental Science; ksalton at hpl.umces.edu; Tel: (914) 526-2498

http://striweb.si.ed..._et_al_Sida.pdf