Why Does Everyone Hate Invasives?

100% agreement on that one! Whatever happened to your Detroit River research project? I was planning on setting aside at least a weekend of my summer (if not more) on that. A perfect opportunity for a friendly debate. Is the project still in the works?

Detroit river work has been Postponed due to several factors out of my control...I plan on reapplying for the permits and trying next year...

It's high time we have a "Minnow Hugger" t-shirt or some such. I know that's the level I'm working on, and I hope others agree. If we don't hug them now they're gone, baby, thanks for playing.

It's high time we have a "Minnow Hugger" t-shirt or some such. I know that's the level I'm working on, and I hope others agree. If we don't hug them now they're gone, baby, thanks for playing.

I'd wear a "Minnow Hugger" T-shirt with pride. I'd really like to post an easy to follow graphic of a shrinking range of a (any) fish. I feel a graphic of this nature might help forum members realize how dire the future is for our wild fish.

Who's to say what the "proper" functioning of a given ecosystem is, escepcially given the narrow temporal slice we are looking at? It makes no more sense than saying that the earth's current temperature and climate is the proper and ideal one, and that any changes plus or minus are an indication of impending catastrophe.

The one constant in nature is that things change. This particular window in time does not yield a snapshot of the "ideal" ecosystem, whatever that is. Nor did it 100 years ago, or 1000, etc.

You guys claim humans are the problem, but you define everything from a human point of view, which is itself an artificial (read "unnatural") construct.

Now, if the earth were a charred cinder, then that would be a shame.

So in a nutshell, you're saying that people don't need to behave responsibly towards the environment because we're a part of nature, and we're only doing what comes naturally to us?

As opposed to using what? Opinions? <evil grin>

Todd

It's ALL a matter of opinion. For example, the definition of a healthy system depends on whether you're a barrens topminnow or a mosquitofish, or a supposedly objective student of such things. Which is better, a static system in which nothing changes, or a dynamic system in which populations decline or thrive according to the circumstances? We all have our ideas, but most people have little concept of how training and preconceived notions affect our perception of the world. Biological science is especially vulnerable in this regard.

That's my opinion, and it's not subject to measurement.

But back to my original thesis:
Hey, that Paris Hilton - she's really something, eh?

So in a nutshell, you're saying that people don't need to behave responsibly towards the environment because we're a part of nature, and we're only doing what comes naturally to us?

Perhaps. What is "responsible" behavior, and what are the goals of said behavior? Do other animals behave in a responsible manner (e.g. our beloved mosquitofish), and if not, are they therefore not part of nature, or somehow irresponsible? Or are they doing what nature designed them to do? (There's that design problem, and even I am not going to delve into that one!)

It's high time we have a "Minnow Hugger" t-shirt or some such. I know that's the level I'm working on, and I hope others agree. If we don't hug them now they're gone, baby, thanks for playing.

...and a billion Chinese don't give a damn (to paraphrase an old quote).

But I do love my minners. I'd hate to see 'em gone, but those darn Chinese - well, they just don't care about nothin'!

It's ALL a matter of opinion. For example, the definition of a healthy system depends on whether you're a barrens topminnow or a mosquitofish, or a supposedly objective student of such things.

To a mosquitofish, all ecosystems are healthy.

To a mosquitofish, all ecosystems are healthy.

Not my tanks! Nothing can survive in there.

Not my tanks! Nothing can survive in there.

I'm not sure your tanks should count...

One time i put one in a stagnant 20 gallon tank full of green water outside. The water got up to like, 120'F. Not even the mosquitos could live. I went out there one day and there where like, 60 in the tank.

I agree with Irate. If humans are natural and evolved on this planet then everything we do is natural. I think it is mighty bold to say we're going to "destroy the whole thing". The earth is billions of years old. There have been 5 mass extinction on this planet (6 if you count what we're doing). The Permian extinction killed of what...90% of life on earth? The Cretaceous extinction ended the 140 million year reign of the dominate animals on this planet. I'm all for conservation, I don't like that ignorant humans are doing so much damage to the environment and are aware of it at the same time. Lets face facts though, we WILL NOT destroy the planet. Extinctions are a natural part of evolution and cannot be prevented. It's actually the invasive speices we all try so hard to eliminate that will be the driving force behind evolution. Those that cannot adapt will die, others will survive and evolve. Eventually the invasive species that are here will undergo their own changes. These are the forces that encourage and create biodiversity in the first place. I don't however think humans will be around to see any of it.

I agree with Irate also.....

So what ever became of Paris Hilton's Dog???
Never seem to see it anymore...

Hmm. I can see the large picture here and even believe I can understand the train of thought. But if you look at it one fish at a time, I don't think you can attribute declines to anything other than poor stewardship. I must say that man performs a great many unnatural acts (some effect the waters our fish live in). I also agree that we'll not destroy the whole thing since at some point self preservation comes into play. The question is.....what fish will be left when the natural instinct to save our own skin kicks in?

I can only ask folks to look at the fishes one at a time.

So what ever became of Paris Hilton's Dog???
Never seem to see it anymore...

She had the dog with her when she ran into that lady's car in the parking lot last week...

Interesting article posted on the email list about how renewable energy is bad for the environment - a point I have tried to make in the past. Here it is

Not my tanks! Nothing can survive in there.

Red herring seem to do pretty well

Todd

Red herring seem to do pretty well

Todd

You da man, Todd! All that and a sense of humor! First, you must get me another shrubbery! Then, you must cut down the mightiest tree in the forest,

Wiiiitthhh...

A HERRING!

Wiiiitthhh...

A HERRING!

Ah, bless the Pythons.

I've actually been considering making a presentation on some of my work a la Flying Circus episode "War, Death and Destruction" on invasive species and interspecific interactions facilitating their, ahem, invasiveness. Mainly our own contributions to the interspecificity, but I suppose I'd be a perpetrator of opinion at this point, since I've done no testing of my hypotheses. <more evil grinning>

Opinions are much more interesting than facts anyway. Opinions can be argued ad infinitum.

I agree with Irate also.....

So what ever became of Paris Hilton's Dog???
Never seem to see it anymore...

Ok Since enquiring minds want to know... Stumbled across this today. Another mystery solved.

I'm afraid it must remain a mystery...