Known Pumpkinseed Hybrids

You're drawing a spurious conclusion that the frequency of posts

"Spurious" - I like the sound of that! This forum is nothing if not full of spurious conclusions! Kind of like Bruce's fish ID's

Well, along that line, any "species" is just a hypothesis anyway

Todd

You allude to the potential eventual degredation of the original species from which the hybrids are derived, due to sterilization, etc. Do you think there's also the possibility of a more robust, best of both worlds kind of hybrid resulting in a more hardy, fertile and dominant species?

The purpose of my experiment is to identify a first generation interspecies hybrid that consistently produces offspring that have one complete set of chromosomes from each of the parental species as inherited effectively as a clone from the hybrid mother and one complete set from the father that could either be of one of the parental species or another. Desired end result is to typically (preferably always) in the production animal have three sets of chromosomes (3n = triploid), be sterile and hopefully have a sex ratio skewed heavily towards male. The production population would also grow rapidly to dimensions desired for the table.

Qualified yes for hardy but no for other parts, the desired end result would be more robust for production but not competent as a species or disrupter of locally adapted sunfish gene complexes of the drainage where my intended creature is to be cultured and very likely to escape to from time to time.

Such a result has been achieved with the domestication of cattle that likely involved a hybridization event between what we would now consider different species and 8,000 years or so of selective breeding. Such animals definantly survive better than wild ancestors when under culture conditons but the same animals would be decidely inferior where smarts, stamina and attitude are needed for dealing with the wild environement. Hybridization and selective breeding have also resulted in similar results for several cultured plant species including many of our staple grain crops. Optimization for one specific set of conditions is going to compromise abilities under another set of conditions.

BTW - Your hybrid program would make a fabulous topic at this year's convention. Do you plan to present it?

To be honest, presenting this research at a NANFA meeting would likely get me removed from the gene pool.

I'm intrigued by the pumpkinseed x northern bluegill. That looks exactly like so many of the sunnies around here, I would have sworn it was a pumpkinseed. I don't see any bluegill in that.
I could be catching more hybrids than I realize. Bluegills and pumpkinseeds share waters all over the state.
How does that cross do? Can they reproduce? Would they cross back to pumpkinseeds?

Care must be taken when extrapolating from the images I have provided, especially since I did not provide images of half-sibling pure pumpkinseed males. This will corrected soon. The bluegill in the bluegill hybrid will then jump out and bite you.


We are just now starting to test fertility of the hybrids. I do not completely trust conclusions of previous works with hybrids (including the pumpkinseed x bluegill) since source of parentals used to make the hybrids may complicate the issue of fertility. My findings as a result will also be of limited scope in this regard although I am testing under conditions where performance under natural / fishery conditions are not as important. There is also the issue as to how fertile.

As indicated previously the redear version is very fertile but we do not know if such animals can effectively reproduce in a sunfish assemblage where both parental species are present in sufficient numbers to find mates. The redear hybrids are fertile amongst themselves but they do produce a lot of cretons. The female hybrid (redear) will mate with male redear when the pure pumpkinseed will not. We have not tested a backcross to pumpkinseeds as a we consider such a cross to favor the undesirable size traits of the pumpkinseed. Pursuit of a hybrid for my work stops if size is not increased or sterility of the end result is not probable. We are starting to hit some dead ends now.

So, to paraphrase to make sure I understand you: you're looking to produce a hybrid sunfish line that grows faster than either of its parent species, is sterile, and would likely be outcompeted by it's wild type peers, should it escape its aquaculture facility? And the purpose of this work is to produce a food fish for market?

Aren't their other species that would be more suitable to such an objective? And is hybridization necessary?

The purpose of my experiment is to identify a first generation interspecies hybrid that consistently produces offspring that have one complete set of chromosomes from each of the parental species as inherited effectively as a clone from the hybrid mother and one complete set from the father that could either be of one of the parental species or another. Desired end result is to typically (preferably always) in the production animal have three sets of chromosomes (3n = triploid), be sterile and hopefully have a sex ratio skewed heavily towards male. The production population would also grow rapidly to dimensions desired for the table.

Qualified yes for hardy but no for other parts, the desired end result would be more robust for production but not competent as a species or disrupter of locally adapted sunfish gene complexes of the drainage where my intended creature is to be cultured and very likely to escape to from time to time.

Such a result has been achieved with the domestication of cattle that likely involved a hybridization event between what we would now consider different species and 8,000 years or so of selective breeding. Such animals definantly survive better than wild ancestors when under culture conditons but the same animals would be decidely inferior where smarts, stamina and attitude are needed for dealing with the wild environement. Hybridization and selective breeding have also resulted in similar results for several cultured plant species including many of our staple grain crops. Optimization for one specific set of conditions is going to compromise abilities under another set of conditions.
To be honest, presenting this research at a NANFA meeting would likely get me removed from the gene pool.

So, to paraphrase to make sure I understand you: you're looking to produce a hybrid sunfish line that grows faster than either of its parent species, is sterile, and would likely be outcompeted by it's wild type peers, should it escape its aquaculture facility? And the purpose of this work is to produce a food fish for market?

Aren't their other species that would be more suitable to such an objective? And is hybridization necessary?

Suggest a better species. Hybridization can serve as a marker for production stocks.

Correct me if I am wrong, but some hybrids produced over chub nest are frequent enough that on ocassion they were described as a species. The similar situations promoted by cuckholders among the sunfishes maybe as important as turbidity in densely packed multi-species breeding colonies. How picky are sneakers when they burst in and deposit a blast of sperm? Central longear sneakers seem to have a problem getting over the nest bowl when they seem concerned about attacks from nesting males and roving spotted bass.

The only cyprinid species I can think of that has arisen from hybridization is Cheat minnow, Pararhynichthys bowersii, and I think there is even some disagreement about it's validity.

The only cyprinid species I can think of that has arisen from hybridization is Cheat minnow, Pararhynichthys bowersii, and I think there is even some disagreement about it's validity.

Microsatellite data suggest Cheat minnnows do not behave as a single lineage; they're the result of multiple independent hybridization events. While this doesn't entirely trump the allozyme and morphological evidence for species status, there's some other data sets that support the hybridization angle. Expect a paper on this to come out soon...

(and yes, I'm eating crow on this one, would have bet $$$ that P. bowersi was valid. Gotta go with the data, though...)

Some populations of clonal Phoxinus eos x P. neogaeus in the Northern Great Plains may be an example, but as far as I know there's some disagreement over them, also.

Dave

Edited by daveneely, 11 July 2008 - 03:51 PM.

What do you mean "hybridizaton can serve as a marker for production stocks?"

As far as a better species, I meant a better species for aquaculture/food production. Lepomis sunfish don't grow that big, or that fast, no?

I'd also think an herbivorous species would be better than an insectivorous/predatory species. The problem with the latter, I would think would be procuring enough animal protein for it to eat. With an herbivorous species, you could probably more easily culture plant material on site--something fast growing, like duckweed, or anacharis.

Unfortunately, most of the fast growing herbivorous species are not native to NA, so you'd probably have to work with big cichlids or one of the bigger non-native minnows.

The problem of escape would mean closed ponds, not something that empties into an existing waterway.

If you couldn't work with an herbivorous species, I would think channel cats would be easier to work with than hybrid sunfish. They probably grow bigger and faster, no?

Suggest a better species. Hybridization can serve as a marker for production stocks.

Aren't their other species that would be more suitable to such an objective? And is hybridization necessary?

I don't think the other species is the point. His research objective lies within the context of sunfish species, not channel catfish or tilapia. From every post and objective I have read in this topic hybridization is necessary (e.g. staple crops and cattle) to meet the trait objectives. They are things that occur outside of natural populations, plain and simple (e.g. skewed sex ratio to males - no wasted energy in egg production, correct?)

Sorry for the minihijack earlier about the hybridization, species line formation.

Bob,

I am after sustainability. Aquaculture as conducted in this country at this time is largely not sustainable and puts undo pressure on wild stocks and the enviromental quality as a whole.

My mandate presently restricts me to work with native species that ultimately can have life-cycle closure achieved by limited resource farmers using extensive aquaculture methods. Sunfishes are easy to breed. It is very likely that in the not so distant future most of the animal protein sources (marine derived fish meals) will become prohibitively expensive owing as much to fuel prices as overfishing. I am also working on developing through within species hybridization (bluegills which I am beginning to suspect there are four subspecies) and selective breeding a lineage that grows much faster than wild bluegill under extensive production conditions. While I still have the genetic variation I am also pushing the diet formualtions to include more plant based feed stuffs which the bluegill are are being selected in reference to.

If the same results can be acheived as for the wild jungle fowl being selectively bred into the super meat chicken with bluegill, then surely we can get a bluegill that can reach 1.5 pounds in 18 months (two pond growing seasons). We already have some that can be a pound in that time. Think of the wild jungle fowl and compare to the wild turkey. Yes the wild turkey gets far larger faster but selective breeding can override some of this and some species are inherently better candidates for thriving under the stresses of production.

The feeding habits of wild bluegill are omniverous like wild channel catfish. The coppernose bluegill may have a more herbivorous nature than the norhtern bluegill, hence my interest in that subspecies despite its liabilites outside of its native range. As you are likely aware, the channel catfish now uses diet formulations that have very little fish meal. Wild catfish will not perform as well as their domesticated counter parts.

The hybridization can reduce the risks / costs associated with escapement that will certainly happen. Ultimately the selected lineage is to be outcrossed to generate a discernable (based on appearance without need for gel-jocky work) and sterile production populations that is mostly if not entirely male.

I want to explore other species like the black, smallmouth and bigmouth buffalo as well as the carpsucker clan. Problem is politics which are defeating logic at this time. These animals can grow very rapidly and feed low on the food chain which makes them great candidates for extensive production and likely adaptable to plant based diet formulatons. Some of the best candidates for food production based upon just about all measures do not get much support from a "whitebread" market that prefers salmon, trout, tilapia and marine species that can most readily be acquired at the more upscale restruants. The same problem existed early on for channel catfish. This can be licked.

Working with the exotic minnows as food fish in this country at present is not a good way to get funding. The fishes are established in our waterways but public opinion is a very major issue that gets me rather angry stairs when I suggest we do anything but try to eradicate those species. The Carpbuster people get the respect at present even though such efforts are unlikley to make our aquatic world the way many want it.

Edited by centrarchid, 13 July 2008 - 04:17 PM.

Thank you for a very detailed, informative explanation. It sounds like you're involved with a very interesting and worthwhile line of research.

I would think the buffalo and carpsuckers would offer the most promise, but, like you say, marketability would be a factor. Success in introducing any of those as a food fish would need to be accompanied by a first-rate marketing plan.

I'm curious, now, though. Your original post (at least the one I saw first) was of photos of pumpkinseed crosses. Below you write about bluegill crosses. What role to pumpkinseeds play in this effort?

Bob,

I am after sustainability. Aquaculture as conducted in this country at this time is largely not sustainable and puts undo pressure on wild stocks and the enviromental quality as a whole.

My mandate presently restricts me to work with native species that ultimately can have life-cycle closure achieved by limited resource farmers using extensive aquaculture methods. Sunfishes are easy to breed. It is very likely that in the not so distant future most of the animal protein sources (marine derived fish meals) will become prohibitively expensive owing as much to fuel prices as overfishing. I am also working on developing through within species hybridization (bluegills which I am beginning to suspect there are four subspecies) and selective breeding a lineage that grows much faster than wild bluegill under extensive production conditions. While I still have the genetic variation I am also pushing the diet formualtions to include more plant based feed stuffs which the bluegill are are being selected in reference to.

If the same results can be acheived as for the wild jungle fowl being selectively bred into the super meat chicken with bluegill, then surely we can get a bluegill that can reach 1.5 pounds in 18 months (two pond growing seasons). We already have some that can be a pound in that time. Think of the wild jungle fowl and compare to the wild turkey. Yes the wild turkey gets far larger faster but selective breeding can override some of this and some species are inherently better candidates for thriving under the stresses of production.

The feeding habits of wild bluegill are omniverous like wild channel catfish. The coppernose bluegill may have a more herbivorous nature than the norhtern bluegill, hence my interest in that subspecies despite its liabilites outside of its native range. As you are likely aware, the channel catfish now uses diet formulations that have very little fish meal. Wild catfish will not perform as well as their domesticated counter parts.

The hybridization can reduce the risks / costs associated with escapement that will certainly happen. Ultimately the selected lineage is to be outcrossed to generate a discernable (based on appearance without need for gel-jocky work) and sterile production populations that is mostly if not entirely male.

I want to explore other species like the black, smallmouth and bigmouth buffalo as well as the carpsucker clan. Problem is politics which are defeating logic at this time. These animals can grow very rapidly and feed low on the food chain which makes them great candidates for extensive production and likely adaptable to plant based diet formulatons. Some of the best candidates for food production based upon just about all measures do not get much support from a "whitebread" market that prefers salmon, trout, tilapia and marine species that can most readily be acquired at the more upscale restruants. The same problem existed early on for channel catfish. This can be licked.

Working with the exotic minnows as food fish in this country at present is not a good way to get funding. The fishes are established in our waterways but public opinion is a very major issue that gets me rather angry stairs when I suggest we do anything but try to eradicate those species. The Carpbuster people get the respect at present even though such efforts are unlikley to make our aquatic world the way many want it.

Thank you for a very detailed, informative explanation. It sounds like you're involved with a very interesting and worthwhile line of research.

I would think the buffalo and carpsuckers would offer the most promise, but, like you say, marketability would be a factor. Success in introducing any of those as a food fish would need to be accompanied by a first-rate marketing plan.

I'm curious, now, though. Your original post (at least the one I saw first) was of photos of pumpkinseed crosses. Below you write about bluegill crosses. What role to pumpkinseeds play in this effort?

One of the pumpkinseed hybrids involving greensunfish is repressented by females that supposedly produce triploid offspring. Observations of this are based on sympatric wild populations of green sunfish and pumpkinseeds that produce occasional hybrids naturally. Males are sterile and females are relatively rare. We do not know the direction of the cross. We will cross the the female hybrid to bluegill hopefully to yeild triploid hybrids that are 1/3 each of green sunfish, pumkinseed and ultimately our selected strain of bluegill.

Reason behind so many pumkinseed hybrids is that one involving something other than green sunfish might more effectively fill our needs. Green sunfish and pumpkinseed are smaller than I think is optimal. We hoped a redear hybrid with pumkinseed would work (evaluated it first) but offspring of F1 hybrid are diploid. These results and few other observations indicate to me that redear, pumpkinseed and likely red spotted are likely to closely related to be usefull for my purposes. Species used must be in some sort of goldy-locks zone to give us diploid gametes. Warmouth too distantly related to work.

That's very interesting. Thank you. Redears always struck me as being drab pumpkinseeds, so I think you're right about the close relationship.

Has anyone ever tried a redear x green cross, and then crossing that to a bluegill? Redears get pretty big, as far as sunfish go. That might be an option for creating a sterile hybrid that gets fairly large.

One of the pumpkinseed hybrids involving greensunfish is repressented by females that supposedly produce triploid offspring. Observations of this are based on sympatric wild populations of green sunfish and pumpkinseeds that produce occasional hybrids naturally. Males are sterile and females are relatively rare. We do not know the direction of the cross. We will cross the the female hybrid to bluegill hopefully to yeild triploid hybrids that are 1/3 each of green sunfish, pumkinseed and ultimately our selected strain of bluegill.

Reason behind so many pumkinseed hybrids is that one involving something other than green sunfish might more effectively fill our needs. Green sunfish and pumpkinseed are smaller than I think is optimal. We hoped a redear hybrid with pumkinseed would work (evaluated it first) but offspring of F1 hybrid are diploid. These results and few other observations indicate to me that redear, pumpkinseed and likely red spotted are likely to closely related to be usefull for my purposes. Species used must be in some sort of goldy-locks zone to give us diploid gametes. Warmouth too distantly related to work.

Edited by Bob, 15 July 2008 - 11:51 AM.

That's very interesting. Thank you. Redears always struck me as being drab pumpkinseeds, so I think you're right about the close relationship.

Has anyone ever tried a redear x green cross, and then crossing that to a bluegill? Redears get pretty big, as far as sunfish go. That might be an option for creating a sterile hybrid that gets fairly large.

Yes, redear x green sunfish have been evaluated by several researchers for snail control and a smaller number studies have been made as a pond fishery (recreational) species. The hybrid is fertile capable of producing F2's. Ploidy / fertility of of F2's not investigated to my knowledge.

We have a good number of this hybrid now. We may give them a quick look for generating a trihybrid. We also have several thousand redear x bluegill and testing in pond trials now as a food fish.

Yes, redear x green sunfish have been evaluated by several researchers for snail control and a smaller number studies have been made as a pond fishery (recreational) species. The hybrid is fertile capable of producing F2's. Ploidy / fertility of of F2's not investigated to my knowledge.

We have a good number of this hybrid now. We may give them a quick look for generating a trihybrid. We also have several thousand redear x bluegill and testing in pond trials now as a food fish.

I can see that this thread hasn't had any action for a few months now so I won't be suprised if I don't get a response any time soon.

I just have to comment on your in depth and potentially important research you are involved in 'centrichid'. I just happened to find this thread when doing a search on "hybrid sunfish".

It seems your work has been pretty exuastive concerning the specie involved! And pretty cool as well I might add . Although I don't think such a topic would be well received on any cichlid forum! Some of those guys can get pretty serious about preserving the various species when it comes to cichlids!! I love my cichlids too but some folks even look down on selective breeding of any type.

Anyway, I would like to ask how your reseach is coming (I realize this isn't the breeding season. Just curious.)? I'm just a layman but I would like to ask a couple questions. Has anyone ever tried hybridizing any of the bass species with one of the sufishes. I had in mind something like the rock or smallmouth bass. I realize this might be pushing the limits a bit and they may very well be too far removed from each other for viable fertilization to take place but, out of curiosity, has anyone given it a shot? They ARE cousins after all. If it did work you would likely end up with a much larger version of what you're working toward. It would also be far less likely for the hybrid to be able to produce offspring given the greater genetic gap.

Now, I know this one deviates from the extensive sunfish project you currently have going on but, has there been any new work with hybridizing the various bass species? I've heard of the "Sunbass" hybrid but I'm not famliar with what those are a hybrid of (I recall that it may have been a cross with a white bass & something else).

I know that attempting to "cross" certain species may at first seem like a real stretch but from what I've seen in the reptile trade there can be some real suprises! I know that most of the ratsnake (elaphe), kingsnake (lampropeltis), milksnake (lampropeltis triangulum), and bullsnake (pituophus) species have all been crossed with each other in one direction or the other. Suprisingly many of these hybrids turn out to have an unexpected "hybrid vigor". Instead of showing weaknesses in the form of infertility or deformaties many have demonstrated an overall vigor (especially in growth and adaptability to captive conditions) greater than either of the parent animals. Some even displayed a greater fucundity both in reprodutivity as well as greater willingness to breed with even further unrelated ophidians! Note: This info is all anecdotal based on what reptile breeders have related to me or have published in print concerning their experiences.

I thought I'd just add the above info about the reptiles to offer a bit of a broader perspective on the whole hybridization prospect.

It's all very interesting stuff and I look forward to hearing your reply and comments.

Thanks!

sculpinator,

Research is moving. Presently efforts directed towards rearing one of our bluegill lineages to the size where they can be tagged. This January, maybe February, we shall found (breedin into existance) the second generation of our first lineage. Breeding season does not apply with indoor portion of efforts. We are also busting tail with student projects over the holiday season / winter break in preparation for professional meetings and the academy of science projects we go through annually.

"I love my cichlids too but some folks even look down on selective breeding of any type." If breeding is done under any conditions other than natural from which a population is derived, then selective breeding is taking place, especially when done in the confines of the aquarium hobby. Hatchery selection and founder affect just about impossible to avoid when breeding population size is so small.

Black bass by other sunfish (Lepomis, Chaenobryttus and Pomoxis) hase been done. Survival low. A few papers can be found by Googling.


The hybrids you write of in my opinion OK so long as they do not impact wild populations. Such animals should not be released is the best way to ensure no impact.

A lot of the snake "interspecies" hybrids are more similar to some of our sunfish intrapecies hybrids. Maybe the taxonomy of the snakes does not reflect the same degree of relatedness distance as found in the fishes. Many of the snakes seem less restricted by drainage when opportunities for range change occur enabling more frequent crossing and ultimately more frequent and recent genetic isolation events that are more ephemeral. As for some of the more distance crosses, maybe hybrids simply more adaptable to confinement than pure parentals. I do not advise testing this but I bet the same hybrids would have a very difficult go of it in nature. Finding willinging mates, having proper combination of coloration and anti-predator response, appropriate search behavior for prey or some other required resource may be the problems under more natural conditions than provided by the terrarium.

Edited by centrarchid, 10 December 2008 - 07:23 PM.

centrarchid,

I like your perspective on the selective breeding topic. I hadn't viewed it from that angle before but it makes good sense to me!

I may have missed this if you said so before but is your degree in ichthyology centrarchid?

centrarchid,

I like your perspective on the selective breeding topic. I hadn't viewed it from that angle before but it makes good sense to me!

I may have missed this if you said so before but is your degree in ichthyology centrarchid?

B.S. Fisheries and Aquatic Sciences
M.S. Aquaculture
Ph.D. Zoology with lots of nutrition

Learned a lot of cool stuff all the way through and use much of it regularly.

B.S. Fisheries and Aquatic Sciences
M.S. Aquaculture
Ph.D. Zoology with lots of nutrition

Learned a lot of cool stuff all the way through and use much of it regularly.

I'm sure you did learn alot of cool stuff. Likely still doing so as it seems you're still up to your elbows in cool stuff in my opinion.

I'm sure alot of hard work was involved in getting to where you are now. Personally I've never done anything similar but I can still relate a bit. Just supported my wife over the past 2 1/2 years in getting her second bachelors. Glad it's over!

Thanks for sharing 'centtrarchid'. Helps understand a bit better on where you're "comin' from".