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The 'thoroughbred' darter?

Started by Guest_JohnO_* , Mar 05 2009 06:14 PM

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#1 Guest_JohnO_*

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 06:14 PM

Ceas:

Is this what you were talking about? I found this magnificent fellow in Wolfe Creek, just outside of Lexington on Old Frankfort Pike. Dropped by on the way home from work at Josh's suggestion, stuck the net in the riffles near the overpass, rustled a few rocks, and six of these turned up in the net. BTW - wolfe creek is a tributary to the N fork of Elkhorn. Definitely not a rainbow, that's for sure.

Posted Image

Here's a fuzzier one, but it has it's dorsal raised.

Posted Image

Can't see it in the photo, but it's anal fin is bright blue.

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#2 Guest_jblaylock_*

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 09:30 PM

Told ya that was a good site. Those are the same ones that Gus and I found. I hope you left me a couple, I'm heading down there either tomorrow or next week!

BTW: Wolf Run Creek flows out of Preston Springs, which comes from McOnnel Springs

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#3 Guest_JohnO_*

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 09:25 AM

Told ya that was a good site. Those are the same ones that Gus and I found. I hope you left me a couple, I'm heading down there either tomorrow or next week!

BTW: Wolf Run Creek flows out of Preston Springs, which comes from McOnnel Springs

I found at least ten of them, right where the pulloff spot is by the overpass. Only brought home two. My impression was that the riffles were packed with them. I found a rather fat female, so there will be even more this summer.

Got to get out to more of these central KY streams. I had pretty much written them off as being rainbow/fantail/greenside only. Wow, these fellows are beautiful.

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#4 Guest_gdthom2_*

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 12:04 PM

Yeah I have a couple that Josh and I found out of that creek, but not that colorful. They are a very active in the tank. What kind of Darter do you think they are? Good site though!

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#5 Guest_BTDarters_*

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Posted 09 March 2009 - 09:10 PM

Wow!! Those fish rock!! I love the red, white, and blue in the dorsal fins!

Brian

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#6 Guest_jblaylock_*

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Posted 10 March 2009 - 09:48 AM

I went yesterday and found a section of that creek (upstream from the previously location) with THOUSANDS of them. I'm not exsagerating, they were everywhere you stepped. I even found one that was nearly as big as my hand. No joke, it was roughly 5-6 inches....one of the biggest darters I have caught. I kept one, pics to come.

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#7 Guest_JohnO_*

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Posted 10 March 2009 - 10:06 AM

Last fall I posted a photo of a headwater darter, very similar, same dorsal fin. Someone commented - what a patriotic fish.

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#8 Guest_jblaylock_*

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Posted 14 March 2009 - 09:22 AM

I went yesterday and found a section of that creek (upstream from the previously location) with THOUSANDS of them. I'm not exsagerating, they were everywhere you stepped. I even found one that was nearly as big as my hand. No joke, it was roughly 5-6 inches....one of the biggest darters I have caught. I kept one, pics to come.

The one BEAUTIFUL sample of this fish I caught, died after two days.....strange. It was still in full coloration when I came home and it was freshly dead. It must have had an injury, it didn't show signs of sickness. I still have pics to come of it, but I'm going back next week for another one.

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#9 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 14 March 2009 - 10:17 AM

Not strange at all. It was spending every last bit of energy it had to be the best and most beautiful - sex is really expensive in the fish world. They're doing everything to keep their place in the hierarchy of males, and they're not spending any time eating. Plus they're congregated, so any disease among the population spreads much more quickly through all these compromised individuals. The stress of capture and moving can be exactly enough to push them right over the edge. It was going to be dead in another month or so after passing along his genes.

Spring is a great time to collect darters and appreciate their full potential. But if you want to assure your catch makes it at home, you'll have to deny yourself the "Gollum Effect" and put the big boys back, settling for subordinate males. They'll acclimate much more fluidly and you'll get to enjoy them much longer, perhaps even beyond the time period they'd have lived in the wild.

Todd

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#10 Guest_fundulus_*

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Posted 14 March 2009 - 02:43 PM

Testosterone kills, elevated testosterone really messes you up.

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#11 Guest_Fish4Fun_*

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Posted 14 March 2009 - 03:53 PM

Woah !!! do you mean these fish just live long enough to breed then kick off??? what is their normal life expectancy in the wild?? just one season. Just so i have this straight, not that ill ever catch anything that nice, but i should leave the really nice ones and take only sub dominant. and maybe really drab, maybe females to hope to enjoy these for a longer time in captivity?? Dont laugh this is getting deep for me. Im thinkin to keep from ever effecting the great gene pool that great looking fish promises, i should never take the really good ones home. Im serious here, i would rather leave them and just know in my mind they are there, than selfishly take the biggest and best, and degrade the future stock.

Edited by Fish4Fun, 14 March 2009 - 03:55 PM.

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#12 Guest_fundulus_*

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Posted 14 March 2009 - 04:53 PM

Some darters make it to their third year in the wild, but not a lot beyond that typically. Testosterone is an immune suppresant, so being at peak breeding condition for a male is dangerous both that way and also by displaying bright colors in public. They're definitely a live fast, die young group.

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#13 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 14 March 2009 - 05:29 PM

Many, if not most of all critters essentially trade their lives for sex, especially males. As Bruce said, 3 years is typical for darters, and is typical for a lot of minnow species as well.

I wouldn't feel any guilt about your interactions... Those who are doing the most damage don't even realize they're there, and those problems are at the landscape scale.

However, to be successful if you are collecting (you mentioned you're not much of a field person in another thread

), or for others starting out, I would encourage you to get second year individuals for these species. They acclimate much more easily (not so set in their ways), they're less stressed because they're just hanging out and eating without testosterone pouring through their veins, and with appropriate conditioning and feeding, they'll get just as bright as their wild counterparts in aquaria. And in these situations, if things go well in the husbandry, you'll keep them much longer than they'd lived in the wild.

Todd

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#14 Guest_Fish4Fun_*

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Posted 14 March 2009 - 06:51 PM

What im really hoping is to corner a several year individual, who shall remain nameless, but comes from chicagoland, to let me know when he plans a trip into indiana close to my neck of the woods and then, creep around where he is collecting and try to pick up a few, expert tips on how to do this right :rolleyes:

. I dont need a lot of fish to keep just a lot of accurate knowledge, and how to tips, and most importantly.. how to be the kind of native fish enthusiast i should be.

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#15 Guest_jblaylock_*

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Posted 15 March 2009 - 07:48 PM

i would rather leave them and just know in my mind they are there, than selfishly take the biggest and best, and degrade the future stock.

First, I don't feel selfish because this was not the biggest or the best I caught that day. Furthermore, There were THOUSANDS of these in the 30 foot section I sampled. Taking one fish doesn't degrade the future stock, unless you're dealing with an endangered species where that could be a problem.

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#16 Guest_Mysteryman_*

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 08:44 AM

Heh,heh... 16 posts in and we still don't even know their species.

My own first knee-jerk impulse was E. whipplei, on account of the red white & blue stripes, but others have those, too. I'm not a big darter guy, since I don't have a chiller. I do have some local warmwater E. swaini that have been doing very well for over a year, but they don't have the pizzazz of the coolwater ones found to the north, and I don't know many species on sight, let alone those found in Kentucky. Still, it would be nice if we could figure out this critter's name.

Edited by Mysteryman, 16 March 2009 - 08:45 AM.

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#17 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 10:09 AM

Pat Ceas mentioned in another thread that this is an as yet undescribed species that he will be calling the thoroughbred darter without having mentioned its proposed binomial. So it is E. cf. spectabile for now.

Todd

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#18 Guest_JohnO_*

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 10:26 AM

Testosterone kills, elevated testosterone really messes you up.

Just ask Floyd Landis...

This darter seem like the orangethroat variant that ceas was describing. Shape is right, body pretty much matches the orangethroats and headwaters I've seen, definitely have orange throats, but color is definitely not your garden variety orangethroat.

As for getting them... wolf creek is packed with these things, and from what Gus said, they're also found in Elkhorn creek, which Wolf creek dumps into. I was surprised at that, as Wolf is so close to a metropolitan area, and they usually pollute the daylights out of a stream, one way or another.

My feeling is - the more people who know about these beautiful little fish, the more people who will support measures to protect them. Most people here in KY don't even know darters exist, except for vague references to 'snail darter' (which is in TN). If only they knew what they were missing.

Lifespan? I have a pair of variegate darters that are almost 2 years old. Looking a bit tired right now, but they were full size when I found them, so who knows how old they are? As I recall, some African killies hatch when the spring rains revive the streams. They live long enough to spawn, then the summer drought dries up the stream and kills them. But the eggs survive.

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#19 Guest_scottefontay_*

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 10:54 AM

Many, if not most of all critters essentially trade their lives for sex, especially males...

Marriage...

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#20 Guest_CATfishTONY_*

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 12:57 PM

Pat Ceas mentioned in another thread that this is an as yet undescribed species that he will be calling the thoroughbred darter without having mentioned its proposed binomial. So it is E. cf. spectabile for now.

Todd

for those of us that just dont know what does that mean? thoroughbred darter (E. cf. spectabile).
i have seen this fish as a young man in texas in the San Antonio River but it looked more like the orangethroat darters we have here.

Edited by CATfishTONY, 16 March 2009 - 01:08 PM.