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The 'thoroughbred' darter?

Started by Guest_JohnO_* , Mar 05 2009 06:14 PM

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62 replies to this topic

#21 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 01:42 PM

Read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cf.

So, Ceas, who will describe this "species like spectabile", will assign an appropriate binomial (Etheostoma species, Ceas, 2009 wink wink, nudge nudge)

They probably are similar here and in San Antonio, based on what I remember Pat saying before. They look like the Missouri clade, however that ends up split away from these Central Highlands species. However, I happened to look at some pictures the other day on the Texas FWC website and they looked very different that what we see here.

Spectabile is an honest mess

I don't envy Pat working out the relationships. It's a ton of work!

Todd

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#22 Guest_JohnO_*

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 09:22 PM

Well, we had a small disaster today. At the headwaters of Wolf Creek, which is just jammed with these darters, there was a major water main break. The creek almost doubled in size from the runoff of chlorinated water. Last I heard, the break had been gushing for a couple of hours. It remains to be seen if there is a fish kill.

A pity - there were mussels in that creek, too.

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#23 Guest_jblaylock_*

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 10:11 AM

I was going to go back to that same place I went the other day, but I think I will go above the water main break and check things out.

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#24 Guest_gdthom2_*

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 01:47 PM

Its a shame what happened in that creek. Hopefully it wont have a long term affect on the creek as a whole. Well anyways, I thought Id show off my catch. Im not as good at taking photos, but i thought I'd post my second addition of the thoroughbred male:

DSCF0383.jpg 16.55KB 5 downloads

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#25 Guest_jblaylock_*

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 02:19 PM

It was very shocking today. Gus and I sampled about a 30 yard section of this creek. The same section I found thousands of them at last week. In this section we found 50+ dead gold colored carp type species, I'm guessing White Suckers. They were dead all over the place. We also found plenty dead darters as well. Luckily, we did find many male and female orangethroats there. Not nearly as many as I saw last week, but still a bunch.

Very disturbing scene.

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#26 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 02:48 PM

Not good news at all. Did you see any mussels that croaked?

Todd

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#27 Guest_gdthom2_*

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 03:38 PM

Didnt see any mussels, i think the ones that john were talking about were in a different part of the creek that was a bit cleaner. We will have to go and check that section again. You could see the affects of the chlorine in that section for sure.

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#28 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 03:55 PM

Which watershed / subwatershed is this stream in? I would assume it was the Cumberland, perhaps the Rockcastle, but I haven't looked at a map of where Pat is proposing is the range of this cf. orangthroat species.

I did some poking for a news release, and only came up with the 2000 fly ash spill in the Tug Fork. Is any of this in the news?

Do you know if there were Fed listed mussel species in the stream? Matt Ashton, were there combshell over thataway?

Todd

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#29 Guest_gdthom2_*

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 06:26 PM

You will have to double check with Josh or John, but I am pretty sure its in Wolfe Creek, which runs into Elkhorn Creek, which runs into the Kentucky River. The creek is actually in Lexington, Ky about an hour north of Rockcastle County and Rockcastle River, and about an hour and a half north of the Cumberland(depending on where you get in) As far as mussels go, I didnt see any when I went, but then again I really wasnt looking for mussels, and couldnt tell you the difference in any of the mussels. If I do see one, I just admire it and go on. I dont really take any second looks at them.

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#30 Guest_jblaylock_*

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 08:02 PM

I am pretty sure its in Wolfe Creek, which runs into Elkhorn Creek, which runs into the Kentucky River.

This is correct. It is a tributary to the Kentucky River. Same as Gus, I didn't really pay attention to mussels while we were there. I was too caught up in all the dead fish. But, I'm very very doubtful that any fed/state listed mussels were in that creek.

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#31 Guest_ashtonmj_*

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 08:18 PM

Well it being part of the Kentucky River system answers the mussel fauna question pretty quickly. The five or so feds that could be/were in the Kentucky I can think of wouldn't be found with any E. spectabile spp. The Kentucky, especially the Upper, lacks historic records of some of things you wouldn't expect at first for that general area.

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#32 Guest_JohnO_*

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 08:42 PM

If I'm not mistaken, all mussels in KY are listed as at least threatened if not endangered. They sure take a dim view of people collecting just the shells. I found quite a few small empty shells where I was at, probably a mile from the water main break, and one small live mussel. Around a 2" shell, dark brown, typical mussel shape. About a third of the creeks in the central KY area that I've nosed around have mussels, look the same as these. I've never thought to identify them. I have enough trouble ID'ing darters, without adding bivalves.

Wolf creek is a tributary to Elkhorn, which is a tributary to the KY river around Frankfort. The site of the spill is on the west end of Lexington.

I guess these things happen, but those were beautiful darters, definitely the most spectacular of the rainbow/orangethroat variety that I've come across. Hopefully, they will come back, that creek was just crammed with them until yesterday.

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#33 Guest_fundulus_*

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 09:00 PM

The mussels aren't listed as endangered/threatened, but it's of dubious legality to collect any species without a valid license or permit. It's more of a regulated fishery, since there are legit demands for the shells especially in Japan. There's a black market for shells collected by poachers from Alabama up in to Ohio. Many poachers (at least the ones who get caught) are a sadsack group with broken down diving equipment who can't seem to do anything else.

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#34 Guest_gdthom2_*

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 09:37 PM

Well I didnt know that about taking the empty shells of mussels. I picked up a large empty half shell out of the Cumberland while I was down there, but I guess ill be more careful about that to. I just thought it would make a cool decoration in the tank. Ah well.

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#35 Guest_ashtonmj_*

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Posted 18 March 2009 - 06:00 AM

If I'm not mistaken, all mussels in KY are listed as at least threatened if not endangered. They sure take a dim view of people collecting just the shells. I found quite a few small empty shells where I was at, probably a mile from the water main break, and one small live mussel. Around a 2" shell, dark brown, typical mussel shape. About a third of the creeks in the central KY area that I've nosed around have mussels, look the same as these. I've never thought to identify them. I have enough trouble ID'ing darters, without adding bivalves.

All mussels are not listed at the state level in Kentucky. Proportionally speaking, the unionid molluscan fauna has a higher number of listed species than say fish. Many have conservation rankings that list them as imperiled but that affords them no further legal protection outside of the fact they cannot be possessed, taken, harvested, etc. Only a state or federal T&E listing does that. While there are quite a few that do have that protection in Kentucky it certainly is not all.

There's already been one long discussion about what is and isn't legal regarding mussels in Kentucky including some regulation quotes being thrown around. Please, just as you would with fish, know your regulations. It's in there for Kentucky and almost every other state that I've fished or collected in. There is good reason for not allowing the possession of even dead shells. The burden of proof is on the possessee that those weren't poached and sacrified for a cool tank ornament or the thousands of pounds of shells that continually are poached for pearl nuclei. What's to say those weren't alive 10 hours ago, steamed and cleaned, and then oh look it's only dead shells. John last sentance makes another great point about why one should not consider it. Possessing shells without a permit is a great way to end up with a citation and fine.

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#36 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 18 March 2009 - 10:49 AM

This is all not to say that a hand held photograph wouldn't be appreciated, as you guys are documenting this spill

If you happen to feel like it, take a picture of the outside and the inside teeth. A picture of the beak can be very helpful too.

Todd

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#37 Guest_JohnO_*

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Posted 18 March 2009 - 12:38 PM

I doubt that this water main break made anything more than the local news. It was just unfortunate that such a pretty little darter happened to be living in that creek. Maybe it's just because they're new, but I find them to be prettier than rainbows in full color. Not quite the preponderance of red and green, but more variety in color. That silver/white belly really sets off the red and blue.

Have to break out the macro flash and extension tube and see if I can get closer shots of the head. The four that are in my main darter tank are doing very well, loving bloodworms and getting along with their fellow ethiostoma and percina. Personality seems a lot like a rainbow - very curious, not too aggressive but not at all shy.

I'll resurvey the lower section of wolfe creek in a day or two and see what's left. I'm curious as to whether the ones Josh found still alive have survived, or gave into shock. There were some fantails in the creek as well, but these new darters had them outnumbered about ten to one. As some have been seen in Elkhorn as well, and it's a much larger creek (about the size of one of the forks of the Red River), I would hope that they weren't as affected.

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#38 Guest_jblaylock_*

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Posted 18 March 2009 - 01:13 PM

It was very shocking today. Gus and I sampled about a 30 yard section of this creek. The same section I found thousands of them at last week. In this section we found 50+ dead gold colored carp type species, I'm guessing White Suckers. They were dead all over the place. We also found plenty dead darters as well. Luckily, we did find many male and female orangethroats there. Not nearly as many as I saw last week, but still a bunch.

Very disturbing scene.

I wanted to follow up that most of the dead fish we saw were Golden Redhorse.

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#39 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 18 March 2009 - 01:35 PM

I looked into this since it wasn't in the fishing regulations... I think y'all will find it interesting.

http://www.lrc.state...301/001/085.htm

Gus, it sounds like the one you grabbed is okay. If it's as big as I'm imagining, it sounds like a mucket or a heelsplitter.

Todd

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#40 Guest_ashtonmj_*

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Posted 18 March 2009 - 01:40 PM

That's the commercial musseling regulations.

2009-10 KY Regulations Page 6.

Holders of sport fishing licenses
may take live bait from public waters
and may possess up to 500 minnows, 500
crayfish, 25 spring lizards or dusky salamanders,
5 frogs (other than bullfrogs),
100 tadpoles, 100 native lampreys, 500
other aquatic invertebrate organisms
other than mussels, 500 shad (except on
lakes where shad possession/use is prohibited),
500 herring and any number of
unshelled Asiatic clams. A commercial
license is required to take live bait from
public waters open to commercial fishing
for the purpose of selling.

Enforcment of laws as to mussels

Come on give Kentucky some credit, it's not like Alabama, right Bruce :cool: