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The 'thoroughbred' darter?


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#41 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 18 March 2009 - 02:12 PM

Section 2. (1) Except as specified in subsection (2) of this section, a person shall possess a mussel license if he:

(a) Has more than six (6) mussels in his possession, unless he has a mussel buyer’s license;

(2) A licensed musseler may be accompanied by one (1) unlicensed helper.


This sounds like you can have 6 non-Fed-listed mussels in your possession to me, regardless of whether you have a fishing license or not, since the fishing regulations do not explicitly prohibit the possession of mussels.

Your link to the code just says a wildlife office has the right to inspect for a violation, like, um, 7 mussels? How random is that?

I also found it interesting that a "minnow" is only 6" long. I guess more than that is, um, "dinner"? lol

Todd "Not a Lawyer" Crail

Edited by farmertodd, 18 March 2009 - 02:15 PM.


#42 Guest_nativeplanter_*

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Posted 18 March 2009 - 02:22 PM

It was very shocking today. Gus and I sampled about a 30 yard section of this creek. The same section I found thousands of them at last week. In this section we found 50+ dead gold colored carp type species, I'm guessing White Suckers. They were dead all over the place. We also found plenty dead darters as well. Luckily, we did find many male and female orangethroats there. Not nearly as many as I saw last week, but still a bunch.

Very disturbing scene.


Did you happen to take any pictures? I am always on the lookout for photos that show the environmental effects of human actions. (For example, I have photos of cows standing in gullied creeks). Somehow people understand a photo better. In this case, just a photo of a couple dead fish in the water would make people understand much more than just telling them that there was a fish kill from a water main break.

#43 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 18 March 2009 - 02:51 PM

That is a really interesting observation Laura, one I hadn't really considered, even tho I show pictures of everything I can. I wonder if it ties the lobes together or something, where there's a connection between hearing and seeing and thinking?

In thinking about it, we talk about sediment blowing into streams and people go "That's bad." But then we got video of chocolate milk pouring out of a tile and people are like "That's sick!"

I wonder if it's the same for the fish... If you tell them, they're like "Poor fishes." But if you show them, they recoil in horror, "You killed fishies, you bastards!"

Hmmm... I'm really interested in the psychology of interpretation. Beating people over the head with, ahem, "facts", doesn't seem to work ;)

Todd

#44 Guest_nativeplanter_*

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Posted 18 March 2009 - 02:55 PM

I wonder if it ties the lobes together or something, where there's a connection between hearing and seeing and thinking?


I think it does somehow. When I give presentations, I always try to make sure there is an image on every slide. Even if it is just a little one in the corner, and has nothing to do with the project except that it is a picture of the same species, or same wetland type, etc... whatever I am talking about for that slide. I can say that it definitely helps the audience stay focused as well as improving comprehension.

#45 Guest_ashtonmj_*

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Posted 18 March 2009 - 03:12 PM

Todd

This is semantics if we're going to have a scholarly debate on the intent and be a huge thread derailment. The section of code you posted is clearly to regulate commercial musseling operations, which still exist throughout the southeast. Picking up a shell for your aquarium is not commercial musseling. The sport fishing regulations say 500 aquatic invertebrates other than mussels can be possessed, which means zero mussels with a sport fishing license. Honestly I don't care if those who live in and/or regularly collect fish in Kentucky want to venture off and argue with law enforcment or a judge over a few shells. "Know your regulations" is getting old and carelessness by one will bite the entire group in the ass one day. I've got more that were acquired under permit than I'll ever need. You know the insane hoop jumping thats being required now to acquire permits by some of the most well respected researchers let alone ones comping up in the ranks. You've also been down there collecting fish while under a valid permit and seen how aggressive they are enforcing things now. You are exactly right, taking pictures of shells are great way to document mussels, but not more than a year or so ago you were saying the same "you're in an area with fed species, if you don't know what they are you shouldn't touch them if it's legal or not" line.

#46 Guest_fundulus_*

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Posted 18 March 2009 - 08:55 PM

Come on give Kentucky some credit, it's not like Alabama, right Bruce :cool:

Alabama has minimally OK laws, but there's a long tradition of hiring insufficient people to enforce them (not just in reference to fishes & mussels). The one exception to this might be the Environment Police, who function as a kind of Harbor Police on the big rivers in the state. They're very active and will definitely intervene in any apparent dumbassing such as mussel poaching.

#47 Guest_gdthom2_*

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Posted 19 March 2009 - 11:26 AM

If i get some time tomorrow I will try and go take some pictures of that section of the creek.

#48 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 19 March 2009 - 12:07 PM

You've also been down there collecting fish while under a valid permit and seen how aggressive they are enforcing things now.


Well, that was a little bit different. We had two 20x8 foot seines, one in blockade and the other driving. It LOOKED like a poaching operation. But your point is well taken, so I'll just shut up :)

Would still be glad to see photos of any mussels you guys run across, if you feel like fussin' with it.

Thanks
Todd

#49 Guest_JohnO_*

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Posted 19 March 2009 - 12:52 PM

That explains a lot. I was collecting down in the McCreary/Whitley county areas last year, know some people that live there. But, it was just me with a big dip net and three 5 gallon buckets. All I got was the local sheriff stopping by and telling me where I could hook some striped bass.

I'll pay Wolfe creek a visit tomorrow with my photo gear. Would have gone today, but the weather wasn't the best today.

Well, that was a little bit different. We had two 20x8 foot seines, one in blockade and the other driving. It LOOKED like a poaching operation. But your point is well taken, so I'll just shut up :)

Would still be glad to see photos of any mussels you guys run across, if you feel like fussin' with it.

Thanks
Todd



#50 Guest_gdthom2_*

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Posted 19 March 2009 - 02:16 PM

two 20X8 seines!! Would have loved to seen that operation!

#51 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 19 March 2009 - 06:39 PM

Yeah. The officers driving over the Yamacraw bridge weren't quite so enthusiastic. ;)

Todd

#52 Guest_JohnO_*

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Posted 23 March 2009 - 07:34 PM

Well, I'm delighted to report a happy ending to this story.

I paid a visit to Wolfe creek today, the lower section where I had been before. This is about a mile or so from the water main break.

Not only did I not find any dead fish, I found scads of very live orangethroat variants. Colorful males and fat females. Plenty of both, in about the same quantity as I had seen before. Creek is just thick with them. There are also some fantails, but the orangethroats outnumber them, about 80/20.

Curious thing I noticed - the riffles were full of males, while the bulk of the females I found were around rocks in the more tranquil pools. Hey guys, your dates are over there. Get out of the sports bar and be sociable. Did find bags of small brown mussel shells, didn't see any live ones, but wasn't really looking. Usually, you have to dig to find them anyway.

While I was prowling around the creek, someone stopped by the side of the road. It was Gus.

Another curious find this evening. I was prowling around the spring stream on my farm, where I had found a large fantail last year, color was a pinkish orange. Only time I've ever seen one that color, usually they're brown or tan, but this one remained that pinkish color until it died this fall. Today I found another, the same color.

Edited by JohnO, 23 March 2009 - 07:35 PM.


#53 Guest_Fish4Fun_*

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Posted 23 March 2009 - 08:10 PM

Todd, right now in indiana i watch everyday as a cleanup crew is busy dredging out about 30 miles of creek that was contaminated with PCB, spilled from a pond on a medicine manufacturers site, during the flooding here last fall. It makes me sick because just prior to that i was catching small sunfish in that very creek, and now im sure that is over for a very long time.

#54 Guest_fundulus_*

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Posted 23 March 2009 - 08:13 PM

The "orangethroats" probably spawn in the riffles, so males are staking out territory there while the females avoid being harassed and stay in the pools.

#55 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 23 March 2009 - 08:32 PM

Yes, Bruce has it. The females are just staging for right now. You'll see this type of partitioning going on between sexes. The females won't move up into the spawning habitat until they're ready. If you suddenly find them together, put a mask on, or get a bucket, cut out the bottom, and silicone plexiglass onto it to make a viewer. You won't believe your eyes :)

Really glad to hear this good news. Not so glad to hear about the PCB contamination. Yuck.

Did the brown mussel shells have distinct rings, raised edges on the shell?

Todd

Edited by farmertodd, 23 March 2009 - 08:33 PM.


#56 Guest_mikez_*

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Posted 24 March 2009 - 07:30 AM

Todd, right now in indiana i watch everyday as a cleanup crew is busy dredging out about 30 miles of creek that was contaminated with PCB, spilled from a pond on a medicine manufacturers site, during the flooding here last fall. It makes me sick because just prior to that i was catching small sunfish in that very creek, and now im sure that is over for a very long time.


I don't think PCBs will affect the population directly.
Sometimes PCBs are a blessing in disguise. When NY banned harvest of striped bass from the Hudson river due to PCB, the population rebounded with a vengence. The PCBs weren't doing anywhere near the damage the commercial and recreational fishermen were.

Sadly, many rivers and ponds in my area are contaminated with PCBS, mercury and god knows what else. The state puts up warning signs against harvest of fish for food. Ironically, the fish don't suffer from the PCB but thrive under the reduced harvest. I say reduced rather than eliminated because for some reason, although the warning signs are typically in five languages, certain ethnic groups ignore them and harvest fish by the bucketful. I've always thought it would be interesting to chart the health and development of their children over time to see if any measurable ill effects occured.

#57 Guest_ashtonmj_*

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Posted 24 March 2009 - 06:21 PM

Did the brown mussel shells have distinct rings, raised edges on the shell?


I thought of this too. Sounds to me like Corbicula and not a mussel. Even the Villosa spp. are rarely found in small 2nd order streams and typically the rainbows have replaced the orangethroats by then.

#58 Guest_jblaylock_*

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 08:57 AM

Here be some of mind

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

#59 Guest_bumpylemon_*

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 08:02 PM

josh those are stunning. hopefully you can catch some tomorrow!!

#60 Guest_jblaylock_*

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 08:42 PM

josh those are stunning. hopefully you can catch some tomorrow!!



I won't catch any of those tomorrow. Like I said before, a few of us went to the creek where we found these a couple weeks ago and only found a handful. They must move downstream for deeper water during the summer. Many next spring we'll find some more of these really colored up.

I think it would be interesting to see some scientic research done on these for possible individual naming.




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