I've been catching a bunch of very dark coloured pumpkinseeds that have some rock bass-like qualities. I was wondering if it's possible that they are hybrids. I'll post some pictures of theem soon when I get some. The only fish that I know of in that pond are pumpkinseeds, rockbass, catfish (presumably channels) and yellow perch.
Rock Bass, Pumpkinseed Hybrid?
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Guest_donkeyman876_*
, Aug 25 2009 08:06 AM
44 replies to this topic
#2
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Posted 25 August 2009 - 08:34 AM
I really doubt it since they're so far removed from each other evolutionarily. Are you sure you're not catching warmouths?
#3
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Posted 25 August 2009 - 10:01 AM
I really doubt it since they're so far removed from each other evolutionarily. Are you sure you're not catching warmouths?
Sometimes, pumpkinseed males can get very dark when pumped up courting females. I first noted black coloration in redear x pumpkinseed males and attributed it only to the redear which can become almost black, but later saw that sometimes even pure pumpkinseeds can darken.
Please show pictures.
#4
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Posted 25 August 2009 - 03:24 PM
What area are you in? I know of green sunfish x pumpkinseeds and bluegill x pumpkinseeds, but the above comment about warmouths makes sense, too.
#5
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Posted 25 August 2009 - 08:04 PM
I am almost sure that they are pumpkinseeds. I should have pictures for tommorow. I am in Southwestern Ontario. 30 minutes east of London.
Edited by donkeyman876, 25 August 2009 - 08:30 PM.
#6
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Posted 25 August 2009 - 10:48 PM
I should have pictures for tommorow.
Can't wait to see the pictures...when I was electroshocking for fish last night we caught some gorgeous pumpkinseeds in certain areas, but ugly ones in others. It's interesting how much variation there is within species.
About the above comment, however. Rockbass are not true bass--they are actually a kind of sunfish just as pumpkinseeds are a kind of sunfish. While I personally have not heard of a pumpkinseed x rockbass hybrid (and I am not very experienced in fishes, so whether I have heard or not means very little), it sounds like the hybrid could be feasible. @rjmtx: pumpkinseeds and rockbass are not as evolutionary removed as you might think.
#7
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Posted 25 August 2009 - 11:36 PM
it cannot be a warmouth, warmouth only occur in ontario via some spots of the shoreline of Lake Erie, London is at least an hour from Lake Erie I believe.
#8
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Posted 26 August 2009 - 07:37 AM
Here's the sunfish picture from this morning's trip. Also I'm trying to figur out what kind of catfish is in that pond. They seem too big to be channels or bullheads. Some are as big as two+ feet! But all that I can see are these large black shadows. I am almost sure that they are catfish but I do not know what kind. Thanks.
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#9
Michael Wolfe
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Posted 26 August 2009 - 08:20 AM
Does this prove that all unknown fish are... green sunfish?
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin
#10
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Posted 26 August 2009 - 08:37 AM
I never even thought about a green sunfish. This is the same kind of fish I have in my tank here he is.
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#11
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Posted 26 August 2009 - 09:43 AM
I think you have pumpkinseed sunfish that appear a little stunted.
#12
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Posted 26 August 2009 - 11:04 AM
I agree, the second photo looks a p-seed. The first one I'm certain is a Lepomis species(!), with the mouth held at an odd angle; with a red opercular tab(?), making it a p-seed?
#13
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Posted 26 August 2009 - 02:41 PM
My train of 'logic' (hopefully) in identifying:
1) Red dot on the gill, therefore either a pumpkinseed or hybrid.
2) Large mouth--this is not typical of a straight pumpkinseed, which generally have small mouths. Therefore, I am thinking hybrid.
3) Shallow body with large forehead (typical of pumpkinseed x green sunfish hybrids).
4) Notice the vertical barring is also gone. This is typical of hybrids.
I am voting:
pumpkinseed x green sunfish
Are there green sunfish in that lake? Do any of the points I just wrote make sense?
1) Red dot on the gill, therefore either a pumpkinseed or hybrid.
2) Large mouth--this is not typical of a straight pumpkinseed, which generally have small mouths. Therefore, I am thinking hybrid.
3) Shallow body with large forehead (typical of pumpkinseed x green sunfish hybrids).
4) Notice the vertical barring is also gone. This is typical of hybrids.
I am voting:
pumpkinseed x green sunfish
Are there green sunfish in that lake? Do any of the points I just wrote make sense?
#14
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Posted 26 August 2009 - 03:56 PM
My train of 'logic' (hopefully) in identifying:
1) Red dot on the gill, therefore either a pumpkinseed or hybrid.
2) Large mouth--this is not typical of a straight pumpkinseed, which generally have small mouths. Therefore, I am thinking hybrid.
3) Shallow body with large forehead (typical of pumpkinseed x green sunfish hybrids).
4) Notice the vertical barring is also gone. This is typical of hybrids.
I am voting:
pumpkinseed x green sunfish
Are there green sunfish in that lake? Do any of the points I just wrote make sense?
It's actualy from a very small pond. About 1/4 of an acre in size. I don't think that it gets very muych deeper than 3 or 4 feet at the deepest either. The whole thing is covered in lilly pads. All of the sunfish are about that size. As for the "large mouth" I am pretty sure that that is just from the hook. Yes the verticle barring is mostly gone but I don't think that there are any grren sunfish in the pond. There is only one type of sunfish. The pond only contains those sunfish (most likely pumpkinseeds), catfish, yellow perch, rockbass and goldfish that I know of.
#15
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Posted 26 August 2009 - 04:14 PM
My train of 'logic' (hopefully) in identifying:
1) Red dot on the gill (I LIKE OPERCULAR TAB), therefore either a pumpkinseed or hybrid, OR REDEAR (NOT NATIVE BUT NOT IMPOSSIBLE), OR WARMOUTH (SOMETIMES) OR REGENERATED FOLLOWING INJURY ALTHOUGH NEVER AS INTENSLY RED AS SHOWN
2) Large mouth--this is not typical of a straight pumpkinseed, which generally have small mouths. Therefore, I am thinking hybrid.
HYBRIDS WITH GREEN AND WARMOUTH HAVE LARGER MOUTH, THIN FISH HAVE PROPORTIONALLY LARGER HEAD, PHENOTYPIC PLASTICITY MUST BE WATCHED FOR IN PUMPKINSEED THAT POTENTIALLY RESULTS IN LARGE GAPE SIZE, UPPER FISH APPEARS TO HAVE LOWER JAW DAMAGED OR DISLOCATED3) Shallow body with large forehead (typical of pumpkinseed x green sunfish hybrids).
NEITHER PHOTOGRAPH DEPICTS PLUMP FISH WHICH MOST LIKELY TO DISPLAY PLUMP FOREHEAD
4) Notice the vertical barring is also gone. This is typical of hybrids.
BARRING CAN BE A FUNCTION OF FISH'S MOOD
I am voting:
pumpkinseed x green sunfish, NEED BETTER PHOTO AND OR GENETIC TEST, GILL RAKERS MAY BE HELPFULL
Are there green sunfish in that lake? Do any of the points I just wrote make sense?
1) Red dot on the gill (I LIKE OPERCULAR TAB), therefore either a pumpkinseed or hybrid, OR REDEAR (NOT NATIVE BUT NOT IMPOSSIBLE), OR WARMOUTH (SOMETIMES) OR REGENERATED FOLLOWING INJURY ALTHOUGH NEVER AS INTENSLY RED AS SHOWN
2) Large mouth--this is not typical of a straight pumpkinseed, which generally have small mouths. Therefore, I am thinking hybrid.
HYBRIDS WITH GREEN AND WARMOUTH HAVE LARGER MOUTH, THIN FISH HAVE PROPORTIONALLY LARGER HEAD, PHENOTYPIC PLASTICITY MUST BE WATCHED FOR IN PUMPKINSEED THAT POTENTIALLY RESULTS IN LARGE GAPE SIZE, UPPER FISH APPEARS TO HAVE LOWER JAW DAMAGED OR DISLOCATED3) Shallow body with large forehead (typical of pumpkinseed x green sunfish hybrids).
NEITHER PHOTOGRAPH DEPICTS PLUMP FISH WHICH MOST LIKELY TO DISPLAY PLUMP FOREHEAD
4) Notice the vertical barring is also gone. This is typical of hybrids.
BARRING CAN BE A FUNCTION OF FISH'S MOOD
I am voting:
pumpkinseed x green sunfish, NEED BETTER PHOTO AND OR GENETIC TEST, GILL RAKERS MAY BE HELPFULL
Are there green sunfish in that lake? Do any of the points I just wrote make sense?
#16
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Posted 26 August 2009 - 04:51 PM
Pumpkinseed X Green Sunfish hybrid certainly possible, theres black dots very close to the London area. As stressed before, a better (clearer) picture is needed.
Distribution map from Ontario Freshwater Fishes Life History Database ( http://www.fishdb.ca/ )
*edited to add where the map is from*
Edited by panfisherteen, 26 August 2009 - 04:55 PM.
#17
Guest_UncleWillie_*
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Posted 26 August 2009 - 04:58 PM
I know I haven't proven myself as a great fish IDer, but I have to agree with staight up p-seed. Like stated earlier - it looks stunted and the mouth on the top pic looks like it has been injured/held a strange angle.
Overall pattern and coloration is saying p-seed.
In regards to the distribution map.. I don't really think that it rules out the possibility that greens are there - The pond is stocked with goldfish after all.
Overall pattern and coloration is saying p-seed.
In regards to the distribution map.. I don't really think that it rules out the possibility that greens are there - The pond is stocked with goldfish after all.
#18
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Posted 26 August 2009 - 05:54 PM
About the above comment, however. Rockbass are not true bass--they are actually a kind of sunfish just as pumpkinseeds are a kind of sunfish. While I personally have not heard of a pumpkinseed x rockbass hybrid (and I am not very experienced in fishes, so whether I have heard or not means very little), it sounds like the hybrid could be feasible. @rjmtx: pumpkinseeds and rockbass are not as evolutionary removed as you might think.
They are as evolutionarily removed as I think. Ambloplites and Archoplites are more closely related to Pomoxis than any of the Lepomis or Micropterus species. I have never seen or heard of even a Pomoxis crossing with an Ambloplites, let alone an Ambloplites x Lepomis cross. Centrarchid knows more about this stuff than me, I was just saying that would be extremely unlikely. Nothing's impossible, but extremely unlikely.
#19
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Posted 26 August 2009 - 06:46 PM
They are as evolutionarily removed as I think. Ambloplites and Archoplites are more closely related to Pomoxis than any of the Lepomis or Micropterus species. I have never seen or heard of even a Pomoxis crossing with an Ambloplites, let alone an Ambloplites x Lepomis cross. Centrarchid knows more about this stuff than me, I was just saying that would be extremely unlikely. Nothing's impossible, but extremely unlikely.
Good to know...I didn't know anything about how far evolutionarily removed the different fish were. It's kind of interesting that even if they're similar types of fish, they can be pretty different. Thanks!
#20
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Posted 26 August 2009 - 06:47 PM
I've been catching a bunch of very dark coloured pumpkinseeds that have some rock bass-like qualities. I was wondering if it's possible that they are hybrids. I'll post some pictures of theem soon when I get some. The only fish that I know of in that pond are pumpkinseeds, rockbass, catfish (presumably channels) and yellow perch.
Random question: How are you catching those guys? I was picturing a fishing pole, but they're kind of small...
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