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Blackbanded Sun Enneacanthus chaetodon Breeding


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#21 Guest_Bob_*

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 01:11 PM

One other detail. I keep my fish in bare bottom glass aquariums, providing plastic tubs filled with gravel, which the males adopt as territories. I typically plant each tub with java moss, valisneria, or some other vegetation.

Hi Gerald. I've bred the stock I got at the NANFA SC annual meeting through three generations in indoor aquariums. I have over wintered my stock in a two gallon tank, kept in a small refrigerator for 1 -2 months. I'm not sure if it's the cold that gets them into spawning mode, or the darkness, or a combination of both. There is a literature on melatonin accumulation during winter and a spring melatonin drop preceding spawning in many temperate species, and I suspect the hormone also plays a role in spawning of this species. In many organisms, melatonin production is influenced by light levels alone, although some studies suggest that in some fish species, it may be influenced by cold as well. If you opt to keep them at room temperature, try keeping them in the dark for a month or so. My fish spawned at 80 degrees F., with 12+ hour photoperiod.

Peter Rollo's spawning account says that males will gaurd fry. I have never seen this. The fry are small and hard for me to see, so I may have missed initial hatches. Each time I've had fry, I've encountered them as they were free swimming in the tank, while the adults were present. I immediately removed the adults from the tank. Within the next few days, additional fry appeared. My hypothesis is that the fry produce some kind of substance within the first week or so after hatching that discourages the adults from preying on them. I think this substance wears off within a few days. One spawn that I allowed to remain with the adults eventually disappeared, so I assumed the adults ate them, after an initial "grace" period.

The only other centrarchid I've spawned indoors is Lepomis megalotis. Fry my observation, I don't believe the males were gaurding the fry so much as guarding the territory. Males will spawn over previous spawns, and you can observe two or three staggered broods in single nest. I suspect this is similar for black banded sunfish, although (since I have trouble seeing them) I can't prove it.

The black banded fry were well able to eat small brine shrimp, so infusoria weren't really necessary. The fry can eat brine shrimp that are slightly larger than their own heads, often choking them down in a couple of bites. My fry were also really fussy, and wouldn not eat microworms. In addition to brine shrimp, they also really love vinegar eels.

I raise my fish in rainwater, collected at the rain gutter downspout that drains my roof, at a ph of 6.0-6.2 with no discernible hardness. I have never tried raising them in anything other than rain water. I don't know for a fact, but I suspect that the adults won't spawn in water with very much hardness in it. In his TFH and American Currents articles, Peter Rollo reported that his black bandeds sickened and died in his tap water, which had modest mineral levels.

Because ammonia is less toxic at low pH's and more toxic at high pH's, I speculate that survivability might be improved by frequent water changes if you keep them at a higher pH.

Both times when I moved young fish outdoors to mature, I lost all stock. I'm not sure why--whether predators, or temperature. We had some days when air temperatures reached 97-100 degrees. It's possible that without the ability to move to deeper (cooler) water, they died of heat shock.



#22 Guest_smbass_*

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 03:25 PM

The case of them spawning that I documented in a previous thread they were kept in tap water from the city of Bowling Green Ohio where the pH averages 8.4-8.6. For this reason I do not think that pH is a problem so I do not think that a low acidic pH is necessary by any means. The pH in my tanks at my house where I have kept my stock of this species for the past 3 years is also above 8 and this is well water.

Additionally I have never wintered over my fish and they spawn just fine every year. They do experience a little cooler temps in winter (65 F) in my basement but not nearly as cold as what they would experience in the wild in some locations. Additionally I do not reduce the photo period either, they are kept at a 12day/12night photo period all winter long. For the past three years I have had them spawn outdoors in rubber lined ponds in my well water with the pH above 8 some spawns have been better than others but I have not had a real good breeding group the past couple years. I have worked my way back up 10 nice sized individuals that will be 2 years old this coming summer which did produce a few young this past summer (so they can spawn at age 1 but numbers of young seem lower than with 2 or 3 year old fish). I have high hopes for this coming season with a larger group of fish than I have had for a while. I also don't think they make it past 3 seasons most of the time. I did have a female that spawned 3 summers in a row but I lost that fish after it spawned for its third time this past summer.

Based on where we collected these fish in NC at the convention I don't see why some man made ponds would not serve as suitable habitat if there was some good vegetation growth. The pond I'm remembering had plenty of other centrarchids in it including bluespotted, bluegill, warmouth, dollars and I think we even got largemouth bass there. So I'm not so sure they can't coexist in with larger species if there is clear water and a lot of vegetation. This was not a natural pond either because it did have a dam on it. I think the idea of using borrow pit type ponds along a highway or other mitigation ponds that have at least some vegetation growth and not an over abundance of largemouth bass could work just fine. I think turbid retention ponds devoid of vegetation would be more of a problem than the other species.

Lastly to answer Centrarchid... I do think the idea of creating highly desirable spawning sites could be a viable way of producing more fish. The eggs appear to be somewhat adhesive sticking to the wood or java moss on the wood when they were in my tank. However they are not strongly adhesive because I was able to brush them gently with my finger to Knock them loose and then suck them out with a pipet. It would probably not be difficult to remove a structure that had been spawned on and then place it in a separate rearing pond. Additionally because they are up off the substrate it is less likely that current would be needed to act as a male fanning the eggs to keep them well oxygenated. I also think that my method of raising fish is far from optimized for the fish but rather for me. I do not do anything to manipulate the plankton community of my small ponds so I'm sure production could be optimized with some effort. All I currently do other than filling the pond with water and adding some live plants usually in pots (woody and herbaceous). I do think that all three Enneacanthus species may have lower levels of fecundity than any Lepomis sp. I have never been able to produce as high of number of any Enneacanthus sp. as larger Lepomis sp. with similar or even increased numbers of parents in the same size of ponds which will routinely produce 200-300 young Lepomis. My best spawns have been from large groups of bluespotted sunfish (10-12 adults) which produced 100-150 young in a summer compared to typically using 2-6 adult Lepomis individuals.

#23 Guest_mikez_*

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 04:43 PM

Well that's why I was confused Mike, because that would be way out of character for you to say something like that (i.e. I don't think you said or meant that at all). Sorry if it came off that way.

Sorry also. I misinterpreted.

#24 Guest_smbass_*

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 12:20 AM

Gerald, Yes you can use my photos. Send me a PM or E-mail and we can work out how to get you the original larger files.

#25 Guest_centrarchid_*

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 10:04 AM

Lastly to answer Centrarchid... I do think the idea of creating highly desirable spawning sites could be a viable way of producing more fish. The eggs appear to be somewhat adhesive sticking to the wood or java moss on the wood when they were in my tank. However they are not strongly adhesive because I was able to brush them gently with my finger to Knock them loose and then suck them out with a pipet. It would probably not be difficult to remove a structure that had been spawned on and then place it in a separate rearing pond. Additionally because they are up off the substrate it is less likely that current would be needed to act as a male fanning the eggs to keep them well oxygenated. I also think that my method of raising fish is far from optimized for the fish but rather for me. I do not do anything to manipulate the plankton community of my small ponds so I'm sure production could be optimized with some effort. All I currently do other than filling the pond with water and adding some live plants usually in pots (woody and herbaceous). I do think that all three Enneacanthus species may have lower levels of fecundity than any Lepomis sp. I have never been able to produce as high of number of any Enneacanthus sp. as larger Lepomis sp. with similar or even increased numbers of parents in the same size of ponds which will routinely produce 200-300 young Lepomis. My best spawns have been from large groups of bluespotted sunfish (10-12 adults) which produced 100-150 young in a summer compared to typically using 2-6 adult Lepomis individuals.


Brian and Gerald,

The more attractive spawning sites will not induce the females to produce more eggs / increase fertility, but rather increase likelihood deposition of eggs will be on a easily removal substrate so spawn can be reared elsewhwere. Are their studies looking at fecundity of BBS? I bet a female typically produces more than 100 eggs per spawning bout. Brian, the numbers of juveniles you get are an order of magnitude below what we can get from a single batch of Lepomis eggs. Percent survival is the difference. We raise juveniles separately from adults. Adults may not be cannibles but they may still affect survival of juveniles. If system setup correctly, one should be able to produce about 100 juveniles BBS per female per spawning bout.

#26 Guest_smbass_*

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 10:39 AM

I have no doubt my percent survival compared to percent hatched in my ponds is very low. I think it is a density issue with my Lepomis sp. which I have something in mind to try to work around this coming summer. I can't help but think something else is going on with the blackbandeds and other Enneacanthus species. I have noticed over the years that the murkier the pond the poorer the production and quality of blackbandeds I get at the end of the year. This is bio-turbidity not from sediments. They do the best in my smaller ponds that stay clearest all summer because I have the best ability to keep these smaller ponds densely planted and I feel the plants are directly responsible for keeping the bio-turbidity down by using nutrients making the ponds less productive. Small ponds are 10x10 or 15x 15 liners which make roughly 7x7 and 12x12 ponds compared to my larger ones that are 20x 20 liners and are 16x16 and depths are 2, 3, and 4 feet respectively.

My thoughts are that either 1. there is something about the turbidity that causes the poor survival, so blackbandeds are unable to feed well or find food in the turbid waters? or 2. there is something about the kinds of prey produced in the clearer waters with many plants vrs the murky waters with less plants?

I would like to have a lot of plants in all ponds but the problem has been I can't get enough of them to fill my ponds yet. I add more each year but I also have been adding more ponds... I think I will reach the max amount of ponds I have space for not this year yet but the next so then I will be able to slowly catch up with the pots of plants and I buy and or collect more and split them into more and more containers as they grow.

This coming summer I plan to use a 15x 15 pond for the blackbandeds that did well last year at staying clear all summer because it has over 20 potted plants in it. These plants are a variety of woody (Cypress trees, button Bush, and willows) and herbaceous plants (cattails, Iris, some floating and some submerged stuff like Vals). I have high expectations for a good spawn from my blackbandeds in this pond.

By the way for those who think they need a low pH to spawn mine were spawning last night in a heavily planted 40 breeder at a pH of 8.5, temp of 72.5 F, and 12 h day/ 12 night, no wintering period prior.

#27 Guest_gerald_*

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 12:44 PM

Regarding the varying opinions on the "need" for soft acidic water, I'm wondering whether pH may be not important (as several of you have said) but perhaps hardness is a real factor. High pH does not indicate high hardness. Given that E.chaetodon's ecological success seems closely tied to its tolerance of very low mineral content, perhaps its calcium & magnesium uptake cells are hard-wired to absorb all the Ca/Mg they can get. If E.chaetodon is unable to slow down its uptake when Ca/Mg are abundant, it might absorb too much and calcify the kidneys, liver, etc when kept for extended periods in hard water.

This is just my speculation, but does anyone know if there's reliable documentation of physiological stress in hard water for other soft-water endemic fishes? I've read claims in aquarium literature about hardness interfering with breeding and egg fertilization in certain blackwater tetras, cichlids, bettas and gouramis, but I've never seen what research these claims are based on. Anybody know more about this? Are there differences in how Ca versus Mg uptake in fish is controlled, or does the same mechanism work for both Ca and Mg?

#28 Guest_mikez_*

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 03:38 PM

I'm very interested in the hardness/mineral aspect myself. Currently, I have just begun using untreated wellwater that comes out of the ground ~ 6.3 with a nice color to it. Thing is, despite the low pH, the mineral hardness is much higher than you'd expect. Not close to breeding and may not make this season at all but something I'll be watching.

#29 Guest_centrarchid_*

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 09:46 AM

Brian,

I think you are correct, the bio-turbidity issue is the most important factor. The plankton in your clear ponds is likely different in terms of abundance and species composition. Should be easy to manipulate plankton assemblages in small ponds.




Based on multiple parties successful breeding of blackbanded sunfish with a range of water qualities (pH, hardness, alkalinity) , I think they can be propogated without strict recreation of water chemistry typcial of natural habitat.

#30 Guest_ashtonmj_*

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 11:30 AM

Based on multiple parties successful breeding of blackbanded sunfish with a range of water qualities (pH, hardness, alkalinity) , I think they can be propogated without strict recreation of water chemistry typcial of natural habitat.


I'm not sure where or how the notion of what the observed water chemistry was transferred into requirements for breeding, but it seems to be a common theme through a lot of peoples posts. If you look at some of the states where populations are found in the more 'extreme' environments (NJ, MD, DE), specifically low pH, those are also states where most piscivores (largemouth bass) are non-native. We've found Enneacanthus in their stomachs. The relict distribution that is currently observed could be more an artifact of what few remaining areas exist that can hold BBS, but exclude LMB or are at least marginally suitable, rather than an ecological tolerance that everyone seems so quick to conclude. I think the fact that BBS will breed in higher pH water and are sympartic with some of these piscivores where they are native in some more southernly states further supports this notion.

#31 Guest_centrarchid_*

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 12:36 PM

Matt,

I think most in this thread agree that water quality is not a concern.

The exception might be an extrapolation from some species that are less tolerant of moderate pH and higher hardness / alkalinity. Some exotic tropicals of this sort.

Some species starting exogenous feeding at a small size are particular about the type of plankton they will consume and maybe ill-equiped for tackling some of the larger or more active types of zooplankton. BBS do start small and low pH conditions might favor the desired plankton communities in some settings, especially in a semi-controlled aquarium. Hence the continued interest in low pH. Also, without conducting proper trials, it is difficult to say how growth and survival performance are affecting by water quality in the absence of LMB and other eaters of BBS. The problem with managing water quality is cost but would reduce some concern (mine at least) about inadvertant hatchery selection.

#32 Guest_Bob_*

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 12:38 PM

This is an interesting issue. If I ever get a high survival rate from a large spawn, I'll try keeping/breeding them in water with a high pH and high hardness level to see if they survive and breed. Because blackbandeds have often been a little hard for me to come by, I've never been inclined to experiment. In the past, I followed the method in Peter Rollo's account. Because it worked, I stuck with it.



I'm not sure where or how the notion of what the observed water chemistry was transferred into requirements for breeding, but it seems to be a common theme through a lot of peoples posts. If you look at some of the states where populations are found in the more 'extreme' environments (NJ, MD, DE), specifically low pH, those are also states where most piscivores (largemouth bass) are non-native. We've found Enneacanthus in their stomachs. The relict distribution that is currently observed could be more an artifact of what few remaining areas exist that can hold BBS, but exclude LMB or are at least marginally suitable, rather than an ecological tolerance that everyone seems so quick to conclude. I think the fact that BBS will breed in higher pH water and are sympartic with some of these piscivores where they are native in some more southernly states further supports this notion.



#33 Guest_smbass_*

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 11:05 PM

I'm not sure where or how the notion of what the observed water chemistry was transferred into requirements for breeding, but it seems to be a common theme through a lot of peoples posts. If you look at some of the states where populations are found in the more 'extreme' environments (NJ, MD, DE), specifically low pH, those are also states where most piscivores (largemouth bass) are non-native. We've found Enneacanthus in their stomachs. The relict distribution that is currently observed could be more an artifact of what few remaining areas exist that can hold BBS, but exclude LMB or are at least marginally suitable, rather than an ecological tolerance that everyone seems so quick to conclude. I think the fact that BBS will breed in higher pH water and are sympartic with some of these piscivores where they are native in some more southernly states further supports this notion.


I couldn't agree more this makes perfect sense to me. Are there papers on tolerance of pH for various sport species? Particularly LMB? This would at least offer some anecdotal evidence for this idea.

#34 Guest_Bob_*

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 04:28 PM

I have never encountered bbs in anything other than soft, acid water. I did encounter them in a pond that had bass and bluegills once, but they weren't very numerous. The pond was also very weedy and had a lot of plant cover. Your theory is certainly plausible, but I'm not aware of any bbs populations in hard, alkaline water. Is anyone else? It's sort of the chicken and the egg--were the blackbandeds present, and eaten by introduced gamefish? Or were they just unable to survive in water that doesn't meet their needs? It's hard to figure out what happened (or didn't happen) after the bass were introduced if you don't know what was there before the bass were introduced.

I couldn't agree more this makes perfect sense to me. Are there papers on tolerance of pH for various sport species? Particularly LMB? This would at least offer some anecdotal evidence for this idea.



#35 Guest_Newt_*

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 04:46 PM

It could just be a difference between theoretical and realized niche- i.e., they can survive just fine in a broader range of conditions than they actually occur in in the wild, due to some combination of history, competition, sublethal effects on fitness, etc. It could also be an issue of habitat availability. How common is hard, alkaline water within their range? At least here, hardness and alkalinity are characteristics of upland waters. Perhaps the Fall Line prevented BBS from ever reaching those waters- they don't seem like the type to swim against a current to me.

#36 Guest_gerald_*

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 05:32 PM

Florida seems like the most likely place that chaetodon might have had access to hard and alkaline waters, but all the known chaetodon sites for which pH was measured are in the 3.7 to 5.6 range (Tate and Walsh, 2005). From NJ to the Carolinas I dont know of any hard freshwater on the coastal plain, but there's plenty of soft circum-neutral waters (pH 6.5 to 7.5) with lotsa dense plant beds, but no chaetodon.

It could just be a difference between theoretical and realized niche- i.e., they can survive just fine in a broader range of conditions than they actually occur in in the wild, due to some combination of history, competition, sublethal effects on fitness, etc. It could also be an issue of habitat availability. How common is hard, alkaline water within their range? At least here, hardness and alkalinity are characteristics of upland waters. Perhaps the Fall Line prevented BBS from ever reaching those waters- they don't seem like the type to swim against a current to me.



#37 Guest_Newt_*

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 05:48 PM

Interesting. I wonder if there is some competitor in those waters that doesn't like soft acidic water?

#38 Guest_mikez_*

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 05:58 PM

I don't think all the suggestions of low pH soft H2O being important are so far wrong. I was going to say as someone else already did, seems majority of reported sites come from the black water habitat.
I mentioned the bass and bluegills myself as impacting E.obesus but both species are almost ubiquitous in any wet habitat here. The rare vernal pool or mini-pond that has neither, you will see E.obesus in good density. However if you search hard enough, you can also find E obesus present with bass and bluegill,.....as long as there are extensive weedy shallows, and... you guessed it, low pH soft tannic H2O.
Having said that, E obesus is way more numerous than most people including state F&G believe.
Is it possible E. chaetodon could be the same?
And yes I know, two different animals, maybe less similar than I think. Won't know till I find some BBS in the wild and see the habitat myself.

#39 Guest_ashtonmj_*

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 08:15 PM

It's sort of the chicken and the egg--were the blackbandeds present, and eaten by introduced gamefish? Or were they just unable to survive in water that doesn't meet their needs? It's hard to figure out what happened (or didn't happen) after the bass were introduced if you don't know what was there before the bass were introduced.


I don't think it is that hard to figure out, in fact we've published on it. BBS were found in several man made impoundments in Maryland decades ago, and continual bass stocking and habitat alteration eventually led to none being collected for decades. I think plenty of people have given their observational evidence that sympatry can exist to some point when habitat is dense and complex, but when the system is altered populations seem to disappear. The blackwater ecosystem represents a refuge for the most part from predators, but plenty of historical records exist outside of what is defined as blackwater in Maryland and other states.

One small point I'd like to make that I'm not sure was picked up because it wasn't implicit and is the entire reason that this symposium is going on is that rangewide (and in many states) BBS are in a lot more trouble than I think many would like to believe. Gerald's talk is of particular importance because it is seriously considered to be an option in some states because extirpation is likely. There is a lot of good information in many of your varied experiences and I hope Gerald is able to communicate it, but it needs to eventually get in writing.

#40 Guest_gerald_*

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Posted 23 January 2010 - 01:15 PM

The Tate & Walsh (2005) report on chaetodon in FL (where the last known collection was 1989, unless any of you folks know otherwise) found obesus and fliers to be the commonest fish in sites that formerly had chaetodon. The "good" NC chaetodon sites I know tend to have warmouth, flier, a few bluegill, and a few gloriosus. Sites where I've found large pops of gloriosus rarely have chaetodon. And I know only one site in the Carolinas (near Lake Waccamaw) where Ive caught chaetodon and obesus together (neither spp was abundant). Makes me wonder if competition with obesus and/or gloriosus may be important in chaetodon's decline, in addition to game fish stocking and related weed control & liming. In NC obesus is rarer than chaetodon, and I think Dustin said something similar about SC. Could something be happening on a large scale (climate, air pollution, sun spots ...?) that's favoring obesus & gloriosus over chaetodon, even at sites far from obvious human disturbance?

Also, I just ordered a Fish Physiology book that includes a chapter on adaptations to soft acidic waters. Cant wait to see what I learn from that. From the preview pages I could view online, I read that obesus gill membranes have extremely high affinity for Ca++, and just a tiny bit of Ca++ can dramatically reduce Na+ ion losses. At pH 4.0 or lower, Na+ uptake is pretty near impossible, so reducing the rate of Na+ loss is crucial. (Neon tetras, in contrast, can uptake Na just as well at pH 3.5 as at 6.5)!

Edited by gerald, 23 January 2010 - 01:47 PM.





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