Elassoma Gilberti

Your tank makes me want a gilberti tank, but I will be going with fish from my immediate area, meaning very near my house. Hence I am researching for Rainbow shiner, Tricolor shiner, Western blacknose dace, Alabama hogsucker, Speckled madtom, Frecklebelly madtom, Blackspotted topminnow, Southern studfish, and possibly Blue shiner, Striped shiner, Burrhead shiner, and certain darters as candidate species.

So I guess I will have to keep watching you here and on youtube and remain jealous.

I'd send you some if you changed your mind. I wish more people kept Elassoma gilberti.

I found my protractor, so here's a size reference for all these photos of juveniles I've been posting. This juvenile is about 5-6 sixteenths of an inch.
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They were chilling right up against the glass. At first I thought those were blackworms but I looked closer and they're mostly myriophyllum roots.
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Edited by EricaWieser, 13 April 2011 - 11:45 PM.

You might want to rethink Blue Shiner, it's a federally listed Threatened species.

Oops, not sure how that got it in the wrong list. I went through and checked the status and moved all regulated species to another list but failed on this one. Thanks.

Is this a female? Why is it so pretty?
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The other fish are treating it like a female (the females tend to hang out in the plants together wherever a male hasn't claimed a space and is beating them up to get them out of it). I count seven fish in this picture, six of them definitely female.
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I think it has to be a female. But I wonder why it's so shiny?

If you did a blood test I'd bet that it has an unusually high level of 11-ketotestosterone, a potent form of testosterone that's usually much higher in males but is sometimes found elevated in females. It's a primary stimulant of hormonal and neurological processes leading to "male" behaviors and colors.

The fins are strangely clear, but except for that it looks like a young male. Ive never seen more than a few tiny specks of blue-green on the sides of a female Elassoma, usually on old females. Subordinate males are SUPPOSED to get treated like females; that's how they keep from getting beat up. Maybe it's dark fins that trigger male aggression, rather than blue sides. But keep a close eye on him/her (like I need to tell YOU that?). If it IS a female and keeps that iridescent coloring when sexually mature that'll be very interesting. Of course she might need an unusually open-minded male to accept her.

I think it has to be a female. But I wonder why it's so shiny?

I'd think it was a sub dominant male. I've had sub dominant male african cichlids take on female color (Capidochromis borleyi Kadango) until it was ready to challenge for dominance. Then all he** broke loose in my 55.

Watching this thread has me really wanting some but I dont have access to the live foods like I used to since my local mom & pop lfs's folded & only the chain stores are still around. I just get a blank stare when I ask about something not in the idiots guide to fish keeping.

This is the photo I took right before I took the photo with flash that is shown above. Without flash, the fish is far less blue:
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Compare that to a photo of another female
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And also to this submissive male:
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I don't know what to think. I wish I could tell these fish apart more. Is the flashy female the same fish as that submissive male? They've got similar blue highlights. Or is it just a normal female feeling particularly happy? The flashy fish and normal females have got the same brown speckles, which I don't see males often having. *doesn't know*

Oh, some more information: The fish of unknown gender is full grown.

On a side note, how would you do a blood test on a one inch fish? Is there enough blood in them to test? *is curious*

Edited by EricaWieser, 15 April 2011 - 06:31 PM.

Blood testing a one inch fish is easy!
Just cut it in half, taste the blood, and make your analysis based upon those results!
Easy as 1, 2, 3!!

o.O

On a side note, how would you do a blood test on a one inch fish? Is there enough blood in them to test? *is curious*

I can do this for you. It's expensive and you will need to send me the fish. But if you REALLY want to know, it's worth it for the peace of mind.

If you're really slick, you could probably get 50 microliters of blood with a caudal sinus puncture. But the fish would be kaput at the end of that.

Is this a female? Why is it so pretty?

I caught this fish (or one quite like it) in the act of transitioning from shiny-blue-sided to normal-female-type coloration. Here is a series of rapidly snapped photos, one right after another, that demonstrate the transition. Some of the photos used flash and some did not.

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http://gallery.nanfa...sion 1.jpg.html
http://gallery.nanfa...sion 2.jpg.html
http://gallery.nanfa...sion 3.jpg.html
http://gallery.nanfa...sion 4.jpg.html
http://gallery.nanfa...sion 5.jpg.html
http://gallery.nanfa...sion 6.jpg.html

For this reason, I have come to the conclusion that the shiny blue fish was a female. Also, the presence of a second shiny blue female (not pictured) in the back left of the original, not-cropped rapid snapped photos leads to me believe that this is normal female behavior.

If you're really slick, you could probably get 50 microliters of blood with a caudal sinus puncture. But the fish would be kaput at the end of that.

Oh, I'm slick! You can have no doubt of that!

I can get a pint of blood out of that sucker! That's why I charge so much. Also why I keep the fish.

Here's two photos comparing the females being shiny and not shiny.
I think it just depends on their mood.

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http://gallery.nanfa...male 2.jpg.html
http://gallery.nanfa...female.jpg.html

Edit: To those who have administrative powers: Is it possible to get both a shiny and not-shiny photo of a female Elassoma gilberti up on the ID section of the NANFA forum? There's currently only a photo of the male. Thanks

Edited by EricaWieser, 18 April 2011 - 09:07 PM.

Looking through the body wall in your two photos above, I see a suggestion of ovaries (yellowish and lumpy) behind the intestine (dark curve) in the lower non-shiny fish. This same body area in the upper (shiny) fish looks smoother and whiter, like testes. This difference gets easier to see in ripe females. I'm having a hard time seeing female features in your shiny fish -- looks like a pale male to me.

Looking through the body wall in your two photos above, I see a suggestion of ovaries (yellowish and lumpy) behind the intestine (dark curve) in the lower non-shiny fish. This same body area in the upper (shiny) fish looks smoother and whiter, like testes. This difference gets easier to see in ripe females. I'm having a hard time seeing female features in your shiny fish -- looks like a pale male to me.

*headdesk* just when I thought I had finally figured it out...
*is really confused now*

Edited by EricaWieser, 19 April 2011 - 10:58 AM.

Okay, I've been watching them a lot and here's what I think. I think the females can be shiny blue. Here's a group photo of some of the Elassoma gilberti having a party in the Cabomba caroliniana. See the submissive male? He looks different than the rest of them. And some of the females are kind of shiny. Actually, nearly all of the females have some degree of blue shine on them.

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Here's a close up on a fish that is very, very shiny. I think it's female.
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Here's a photo snapped immediately before without flash. Without flash you can't see hardly any shine on it.
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That last photo reminds me; the blackworms are basically gone and have been for a couple weeks, since that post where I said I did an emergency water change because the blackworms were writhing in pain after I added a small dose of anti-algae medicine. I don't plan to restock them until after I move to my summer housing in late May. My plan is to sell off the clams before I move (anyone want any?) and dose the tank to a high degree with this anti-algae stuff. I tested it out on the 10 gallon tank and found it to be effective at killing the cladophora that's been plaguing me for over a year. The anti-algae chemicals would kill any invertebrates anyway (ha ha, leeches, die), as would the move, so it doesn't make any sense to spend $25 to restock the blackworms again until after the move and the chemical dosing. I'm feeding the fish twice a day with crushed fish flakes until then. I think that's why the shiny fish pictured above is a bit skinny. The majority of everybody's still fat and healthy, so I'm going ahead with the plan.

Oh, and I haven't been feeding microworms for the past couple weeks because I'm not trying to keep the young alive; any young born the month before the move wouldn't be big enough to see, catch, and transport anyway. There's probably going to be a massive die off among the young when I move. I'm going to bag the filter media, bag the plants, bag all the fish I can find, drain the tank, remove the substrate, and transport the tank completely dry. *sighs* Oh joy. I get to move this tank twice before August. yay.

Edited by EricaWieser, 21 April 2011 - 07:15 PM.

The shiny fish are male, at least some of them.

I wish I'd had my video camera turned on so I could show you all what I just saw. I had my hand in the tank, moving it in the plants to scare the fish out and into the open so I could catch them and send some away to other people. Well, one of the fish that darted out was an obvious male, very dark of both body and fin. He got into the open, realized he was exposed, and very suddenly (like a cuttlefish) switched color schemes to look like a female. If I hadn't seen it happen with my own eyes I wouldn't have thought they could do it. But yeah, at least some of those shiny fish were probably male. You all were right

Interesting. This is definitely a color changing fish, this Elassoma gilberti.