Elassoma Gilberti

A video instead of a picture this time, since there's movement now.

You can watch in high definition by adjusting the gear symbol on the bar at the bottom of the video.

Edited by EricaWieser, 22 August 2012 - 07:26 PM.

People like Erica and me who've kept Elassoma for more than a year develop a pretty low threshold for applying the term "movement". These fish probably look dead to shiner and dace breeders.

Water Qual in small containers -- add some java moss, Najas, Elodea, duckweed, etc - something to uptake ammonium.

Can you tell yet if they're eating microworms? After the eyes turn black and they can sit upright they should start feeding. There might be some protozoa in the microworm culture that the fry can eat too. Take some worm culture juice to a 'scope at school and see what else besides microworms is in there.

People like Erica and me who've kept Elassoma for more than a year develop a pretty low threshold for applying the term "movement". These fish probably look dead to shiner and dace breeders.

lol, true. They would have really looked dead when you could tilt the tupperware and roll them over a few times and they wouldn't so much as twitch.

Water Qual in small containers -- add some java moss, Najas, Elodea, duckweed, etc - something to uptake ammonium.

Can't. There isn't a light on top of the tupperwares and also I don't want to contaminate the tupperwares with rotifers. If these fry live it means all fry will live on microworms alone. I think I've got the water quality under control. It's a pain in the behind, doing a 100% water change twice a day, but I'll get over myself and just do it. This is an experiment and if there's the chance they lived because they were eating rotifers then it wasn't worth doing the experiment and killing the few that died from water quality. I don't want them to have died in vain; I don't want to have to repeat this, and I need to know if the microworms aren't cutting it for the good of the entire colony's young.

Can you tell yet if they're eating microworms?

It's day 12 and they're still alive, so the odds are good. If they stay alive for a month or so then I can guarantee they're eating microworms, since that's all that's in there to eat.

There might be some protozoa in the microworm culture that the fry can eat too. Take some worm culture juice to a 'scope at school and see what else besides microworms is in there.

I'm afraid to use school equipment for personal use. There do not appear to be any extra-microworm life forms. I have been collecting these microworms from the side of the culture, not scooping off of the oatmeal. The only thing that crawls up the side really is the worms, so even if there's other stuff in the culture that's not what's getting put in the tupperware unless it's riding on a worm's back up the side of the plastic. It's unfortunate that my camera isn't capable of photographing the tiny worms, or I'd take a photo of the tupperwares and show you them. It's easy to see the individual microworms and the empty plastic in between them.

Edited by EricaWieser, 23 August 2012 - 08:30 PM.

Squished one with my thumb just now doing a water change

Update:
Many of the fry swim in the water column or hang out at the surface. Then after a brief spurt they come back down and rest on the bottom.

how fast do these fry grow?, what is the selling age?

how fast do these fry grow?, what is the selling age?

At around four to six months old they'll be a half inch and the males will start to show color. After I can tell what gender they are I consider them sellable age.

Edited by EricaWieser, 26 August 2012 - 12:28 AM.

Day 15 after eggs were laid, experiment concluded. I released the surviving fry back into the main tank. There were 1-2 dozen remaining.

Conclusions:
1. Elassoma gilberti do indeed eat microworms as a first food, at least in the circumstance when no other food is available. The fry showed marked growth from Friday (day 13) to Sunday (day 15). They could not have grown in between those two days from yolk sac alone, having hatched fully 10 days earlier. Therefore they must have been eating microworms.
2. Because the many dead fry were the same size as their living counterparts, and because they continued to die steadily over time instead of all at once a few days after their yolk sac ran out, I can conclude that the fry died of poor water quality, not starvation.
3. Raising fry in a tupperware is not a viable method even for a short period of time. I won't try that again. Losing half the fry in two weeks is not acceptable.

Discussion:
Because the Elassoma gilberti fry do indeed accept microworms as a first food, there must be something else in the tank causing the large number of eggs laid to not reach adulthood. Possible explanations include:
1. Microworms added to the tank are not in sufficient numbers for the fry to find and eat them.
Solution: I will use the two tupperwares purchased for this experiment to increase my number of microworm cultures from 3 to 5.
2. The utricularia gibba present in the tank is eating the fry.
Solution: I don't think this is very likely at all, and am going to ignore it. The fry fall straight down when they hatch and they lay there motionless on the bottom until they have absorbed their yolk sac and grown a bit. They don't 'swim' really for the first two weeks of their life, and when they do swim they are much much bigger than the meat eating bladder of utricularia gibba. The bladder itself is about-ish the same size as the egg, a little bit smaller. Also, a paper I read on the diet of utricularia gibba did not list fish fry as one of its foods. Regardless I do remove the utricularia gibba from the tank periodically, but I don't think I'll ever completely remove it unless I tear down this tank, pay for all new [uninfected] plants, and set up a new tank.
3. Adult fish are eating the younger fish.
Solution: I guess feed them more? Increase hiding spots for the fry? The wikipedia page for Elassoma zonatum cites a paper published on the diet of wild E. zonatum and fry is not listed as one of the things they eat. I have myself seen an Elassoma female eat a fry when the fry swam right near her mouth. I don't know what to do about this other than to keep the adults well fed and the tank well planted.

Other suggestions are appreciated. I really want to make this 55 gallon tank produce more fry but I'm afraid the only way to really increase production is to get multiple 10 gallon tanks and to rotate the adults between them. I do have a 10 gallon tank available but it's got guppies in it and I like them. I'm worried if I put the guppies into the 55 gallon tank and put a breeding pair of Elassoma into the 10 gallon for a month and take them out that the guppies in the 55 gallon tank will scare the Elassoma into never dancing, and I love their dancing. *sighs* I'm going to think about it some more to try to come up with a solution.

Edited by EricaWieser, 26 August 2012 - 11:54 AM.

There was a DIY a while ago on an Angelfish breeders forum for A TLC (tender loving care) fry jar which could be helpful but you'd still need some tanks eventually as the fry grow. Basically it was a gallon jar fitted with a sponge foam bottom filter (homemade) with a foam plug at the top with a self closing slit to add food with a turkey baster. Put the fry in, set in your tank, hook up an airline, bubble slowly, good for 2-4 weeks. Add a layer of gravel or sand below the bottom foam might help hold it down.

There was a DIY a while ago on an Angelfish breeders forum for A TLC (tender loving care) fry jar which could be helpful but you'd still need some tanks eventually as the fry grow. Basically it was a gallon jar fitted with a sponge foam bottom filter (homemade) with a foam plug at the top with a self closing slit to add food with a turkey baster. Put the fry in, set in your tank, hook up an airline, bubble slowly, good for 2-4 weeks. Add a layer of gravel or sand below the bottom foam might help hold it down.

Interesting. Yeah, it would have been better to use something like that for the two week housing of the fry instead of the tupperware containers.

any news eggs or sightings of the fry?

any news eggs or sightings of the fry?

I normally don't see the eggs. They're dancing continuously, so I can only assume that means there's egg production. But no, I haven't seen them myself.

I did see a fry yesterday when I was removing some algae. I don't reach in the tank very often but it had gotten unsightly so I reached in and ripped out a bunch of cladophora. I shake out each piece a little so if there are fry they'll fall out, and one zoomed out of there super fast! I'm glad I shook it out. There are probably a few fry casualties from removing the algae, but at least by shaking it out I give them a chance to remain in the tank and survive. Recently I've been thinking of using a siphon to suck up the thick layer of brown loose um... particles *coughs* that has settled over the bottom. But I don't want to suck up any fry, so I haven't used the siphon.

I think in a month or three (when this most recent batch of fry has had a chance to grow up a bit more, to visible size) I might tear this tank completely down and re-set it. The last time I did that I counted 84 fish when I thought I had much fewer. Maybe tearing it down and actually counting one by one as I remove fish from the tank is what I need to do to get a real idea of how many fish are in there.

Wow, 84! that is insane. If you want to thin a couple of those out I would love to try to breed them myself.

I have some detritus worms in there that im sure they would love. Have you dealt with these worms before? I had them in another tank and my scarlet badis loved them.

Wow, 84! that is insane. If you want to thin a couple of those out I would love to try to breed them myself.

I have some detritus worms in there that im sure they would love. Have you dealt with these worms before? I had them in another tank and my scarlet badis loved them.

I'm not going to have any for sale for a while. Maybe you can find some on aquabid.com in the US Native Fish section.

Ya I found some on there and probably will make a bid.

Have you ever had to go on vacation when keeping these fish? how did you deal with the feeding issue and live food? Leave some blackworms in the tank? just thinking ahead here.

You should really go back and read the early pages of this topic. Actually, when you have time, the whole thing. There's a reason it got to 47 pages. I've read all of it and I don't eve have any Elassoma anymore.

I use live daphnia along with live black worms. You can put one of those small ceramic drip saucers for flower pots with thin layer of sand and some black worms so they don't disappear into the substrate.

I use live daphnia along with live black worms. You can put one of those small ceramic drip saucers for flower pots with thin layer of sand and some black worms so they don't disappear into the substrate.

That's a good idea.

Wow you guys are a real receptive crowd. No wonder this board is so slow.

We might as well shut it down, since everything has been covered at least once in this thread by now.

Edited by Couesfanatic, 03 September 2012 - 08:29 PM.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean that to sound hostile. I have not personally had success keeping these, and probably wasn't the best guy to give you advice, but the earlier pages really are a good read. I'm really not trying to give you a hard time. Seriously though, there was a lot of good information in Erica's posts on a number of topics including the specific question you had and I don't think I could do it justice in a summary response.