Elassoma Gilberti

no problem, I wasn't referring to only you, just the board as a general.

I took a flash photo into the dark tank at night and this is apparently the angle at which this female sleeps:

http://gallery.nanfa...er/216.JPG.html
Poor thing. She darted off into the plants after being so rudely woken up.

Edited by EricaWieser, 04 September 2012 - 09:35 PM.

Because the Elassoma gilberti fry do indeed accept microworms as a first food, there must be something else in the tank causing the large number of eggs laid to not reach adulthood. Possible explanations include:
1. Microworms added to the tank are not in sufficient numbers for the fry to find and eat them.
Solution: I will use the two tupperwares purchased for this experiment to increase my number of microworm cultures from 3 to 5.

Oh by the way I did that. The two tupperwares are now two more microworm cultures. I am now feeding the tank four or five scoops from four or five worm cultures a day instead of three scoops from one worm culture a day. It doesn't exhaust the worm culture as much to remove only one scoop instead of three, so I can use the same cultures day after day. I used to rotate through the cultures so I would feed from one the first day, a different culture the second day, and a third culture the day after that. Then on the fourth day I would go back to the first culture and hope it had rebounded (it usually had). There was a risk of exhausting the cultures when I was doing that. It was small, but it was a risk and with this new technique I think that maybe I've eliminated it. *nods* Hopefully I'm adding enough microworms now. I really would appreciate it if this tank would start producing more fry. They're certainly producing eggs. I watched this one male dance court females for several hours straight yesterday. They're very beautiful when they're dancing

Edited by EricaWieser, 08 September 2012 - 09:50 AM.

All right so here's my thought process:
1. I have a 10 gallon guppy tank and a 55 gallon tank with Elassoma gilberti.
2. The 55 gallon Elassoma gilberti tank used to produce lots of babies but now the hundreds of eggs that are getting laid are not reaching adulthood, none of them.
3. I don't know why and I can't fix it.
4. I do know that if I put two male Elassoma gilberti and three female into a 10 gallon tank and remove them at the first sign of fry, those fry all live to adulthood.
5. I can't get rid of the guppies altogether because they have cost me $235 (I ordered fish from Thailand and Taipei to cross to make my strain) and I haven't yet made my money back on them.

Conclusion:
I am going to put the guppies in the 55 gallon Elassoma gilberti tank. The reason why I didn't before is because every time I do they scare the Elassoma gilberti into the plants and I can't see them any more, which makes me sad. But if I can see the Elassoma in my 10 gallon tank (and better, can see first adults and then a few dozen healthy fry growing up into adults), that would make me happy. Also they eat the food more aggressively than the Elassoma do and the Elassoma are at risk of starving if I don't have lots and lots of food.
First I have to increase my grindal worm cultures so that I have enough food to be able to feed a 55 gallon tank of gluttonous guppies and still have enough worms to drift down to feed all the shy hiding gilberti. Then I'll catch some Elassoma from the 55. Then I'll catch the guppies from the 10 gallon and put them in the 55. Then I'll put the small breeding colony of Elassoma in the 10 gallon. Hopefully they'll dance, make fry, I'll avoid a plant meltdown this time, I'll get lots of healthy fry, I'll share some of them and put the rest in my 55. Then I'll restock the breeding colony and hopefully have continuous fry production. That's my goal. I'm going right now to increase my grindal worm cultures. I've got a plan to make the one layer sponges (whose worms drown a bit) into two layer to increase them up to the production rate of my two layer cultures. Off to go do that.

Edited by EricaWieser, 09 September 2012 - 11:11 AM.

Off to go do that.

Done! Three female and one male Elassoma gilberti are in the 10 gallon tank. The guppies are in the 55 gallon tank with the rest of the Elassoma gilberti. This is a special strain of guppy that I bred solely for the purpose of compatibility with the Elassoma; they look if anything quite a lot like leptolucania ommata. So hopefully the Elassoma will continue to emerge from the plants in the 55 gallon tank. I checked and there's still plenty of food for everybody. Either way, hopefully this 10 gallon leads to some healthy baby Elassoma gilberti that reach adulthood.

Edited by EricaWieser, 09 September 2012 - 12:35 PM.

Here is a video. He hates them

I've seen dead fish in the Petco feeder tank react more than that.

I've seen dead fish in the Petco feeder tank react more than that.

Lol. Um, well, yes. He's probably staying still to keep from getting noticed. I think he's trying to blend in with the plant and avoid them as much as possible.

Edited by EricaWieser, 09 September 2012 - 07:15 PM.

i just moved across the country, about a three thousand mile car trip, with my gilbertis sitting in a ten gallon tank sloshing the whole way. seven days ago, i made it here and set my gilberti tank on a desk and put a light on it.

i havent even managed to find the old filters yet, but they have already bred. i just found fry this morning. i gave some to a friend along the way, and hers were spawning before i even finished the trip.

elassoma gilberti, the most prolific breeders ever.

i just moved across the country, about a three thousand mile car trip, with my gilbertis sitting in a ten gallon tank sloshing the whole way. seven days ago, i made it here and set my gilberti tank on a desk and put a light on it.

i havent even managed to find the old filters yet, but they have already bred. i just found fry this morning. i gave some to a friend along the way, and hers were spawning before i even finished the trip.

elassoma gilberti, the most prolific breeders ever.

The ones in my 10 gallon haven't colored up and starting spawning yet
But yeah, usually they're prolific breeders.

well hello everyone! I finally decided to register after some time, and this is the first place i'm coming to.
I've been reading up a lot of information on this site and am ready to acquire a group of elassoma gilberti. Can anyone kindly share places I can look? I checked aquabid, jonah's, and zimmerman's but have not found any. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

well hello everyone! I finally decided to register after some time, and this is the first place i'm coming to.
I've been reading up a lot of information on this site and am ready to acquire a group of elassoma gilberti. Can anyone kindly share places I can look? I checked aquabid, jonah's, and zimmerman's but have not found any. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

I'm trying to produce some fry right now. They're not ready for sale. Keep checking aquabid.com's US Native Fish section; there are a few vendors who frequent there. Perhaps now that it's September things might have cooled down a bit (har har) for the wild-catch people. Thankfully my source of fish is captive breeding (*coughs* I suck at it though) so I'll have some available theoretically soon. Don't worry, I'll update this topic when they spawn, and I'll share pictures of the eggs again like I did a few posts ago. Elassoma gilberti are a wonderful native fish and one I hope gets more popular with people. I'm doing everything I can to raise awareness and availability of this great fish. While you're waiting, maybe you could get a start on your live food cultures. Grindal worms take a few months to go from starter culture size to daily feedings size. I talk about how I've got my grindal worms set up here: http://forum.nanfa.o...ips-and-tricks/ (second page has diagrams)

I'm trying to produce some fry right now. They're not ready for sale. Keep checking aquabid.com's US Native Fish section; there are a few vendors who frequent there. Perhaps now that it's September things might have cooled down a bit (har har) for the wild-catch people. Thankfully my source of fish is captive breeding (*coughs* I suck at it though) so I'll have some available theoretically soon. Don't worry, I'll update this topic when they spawn, and I'll share pictures of the eggs again like I did a few posts ago. Elassoma gilberti are a wonderful native fish and one I hope gets more popular with people. I'm doing everything I can to raise awareness and availability of this great fish. While you're waiting, maybe you could get a start on your live food cultures. Grindal worms take a few months to go from starter culture size to daily feedings size. I talk about how I've got my grindal worms set up here: http://forum.nanfa.o...ips-and-tricks/ (second page has diagrams)

\

ah, from the starter herself! Thanks for that info.
I was thinking, would it be ok feeding them baby brine shrimp? I have aru 2 that I've been trying to breed and they go NUTS for them.

I was thinking, would it be ok feeding them baby brine shrimp? I have aru 2 that I've been trying to breed and they go NUTS for them.

I wouldn't rely on baby brine shrimp alone as the sole food. There's no easy way to nutritionally enrich them, so if they are lacking in some essential nutrient the fish might eventually develop a deficiency. Also, although I've heard of other people feeding baby brine shrimp to Elassoma I've tried adult brine shrimp and they didn't bite.

If you're worried about the grindal worm culture smelling, it doesn't have to. I open my grindal worm cultures every day twice or three times a day to feed my fish and feed the worms some kibbles while I'm at it. If it smells, I take it to the sink, take the sponges out, and rinse the box. Cultures handled properly are very low maintenance and extremely low smell. I don't have to wash the boxes but maybe once a week to once in three weeks. The trick is to watch your worms. If a kibble's not being completely surrounded by worms, put some around it. If the kibble's starting to mold, remove it and leave that two square inches of sponge empty for a day. Then put a new kibble down nearby and put worms on it.
It's in your best interest for the grindal worm culture not to smell at all, really, because when the culture has an odor the worms are more focused on getting out of there than eating and breeding. If you keep the culture odorless they are much more productive.

Based upon the result of the experiment from a page or so ago, a diet of solely dog-kibble-fed grindal worms is sufficient for Elassoma gilberti egg production in high numbers, an excellent hatch rate (all but a few out of sixty ish eggs), and good fry initial nutrient level.
Why are my fry not surviving to adulthood? It's not because of the diet. Honestly I think it's got to do with being in the same tank as the bigger pygmy sunfish. Soon there will be fry in the 10 gallon, I hope, I'll remove the parents to the 55 gallon tank, and there will be a good batch of maybe three dozen fish raised to juvenile size. That would be great. I'll keep posting here as things happen.

The only updates to the story so far is that I captured a few more gulf coast pygmy sunfish from the 55 gallon tank and put them in the 10 gallon. I rearranged the plants a bit to divide them. There is now dense myriophyllum pinnatum on the left and right sides but no plant in the middle. Maybe the rearrangement will let the males claim territory more easily. I don't know. Time will tell.

i think i may have stumbled onto something that might change the way i raise gilberti fry...

as most of you know, i have been keeping cultures of vernal pool critters, getting them to lay their eggs in sand and such. well, when i have the cultures hydrated, i often feed them with gunk i siphon off the bottom of my tanks.

this time, i set up my vernal pool critters, ostracods, ceriodaphnia, and fairy shrimp, all in the same large plastic tub. since its cooler here in monterey CA than it was in north carolina, i moved the culture indoors where the warmer temps translate to faster growth. the only tank i have siphoned stuff from this time has been my gilberti tank. i just moved the lights around on the live food culture to see how it was doing and found several gilberti fry. the last time i siphoned gunk off the gilberti tank was a couple days ago, the first time was about 8 days ago, and these fry are quite a bit larger than they are when newly hatched.

i couldn't even see any fry when i siphoned the tank, i thought that they had all died or had been eaten. if this works out, i may be able to just continue on with tank maintenance as normal and be able to raise most of the fry in the process. the culture will begin to decline in about two months, and by then the fry should be large enough that i can start feeding them on something else.

it occurs to me that i should have noticed something similar in north carolina, but i imagine the 100+ degree temps were killing any and all fry that made it into my live food cultures, which were left in full sun.

if this works out, ill culture some sand sans-fry and start sending some samples to anyone else who wants to try it.

hmm interesting. this may be a one off topic but what's the smallest type of food for frys?
i'm havnig trouble keeping my aru 2 fry alive.

Philodina freshwater rotifers are a good starter food for fry that can't yet take Artemia, and for those that wont eat micro/banana worms. They're fairly easy to grow in quart to gallon jars of water and fed dried peas, yeast, fish food powder, etc. BTW what is "aru 2" ? Fresh-hatched Artemia are sufficiently nutritious for raising Elassoma fry. Get the smallest size eggs you can find (SF Bay eggs are best, but pricy) and harvest and feed to fry as soon as they hatch. Note that "San Francisco Bay Brand" is a BRAND name and they sell cheaper (larger) eggs from UT and elsewhere, not just SF Bay eggs. Check the fine print.

Mine is Psedumugil gertrudae aru2.

Btw I don't think the bbs will be small enough for the aru2 frys. They about half the size of the fry I've had. Sorry Erica if I'm taking over this thread!

Btw where can I get Philodina freshwater rotifers?

I just checked my old neglected culture -- there's still a few live, so I added water and fed it. In a week or so we'll see if the Philodina bloom again and I can send you some. If you want a pure culture get it from a Bio Supply house like Carolina Biological. Mine has all sorts of other "bugs" including Harpacticoid copepods, which are smaller than Cyclops and coexist with rotifers.

Btw I don't think the bbs will be small enough for the aru2 frys. They about half the size of the fry I've had. Sorry Erica if I'm taking over this thread!

Btw where can I get Philodina freshwater rotifers?