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Blue colored Bluegills?

Started by Guest_jkurtz7_* , May 16 2008 02:28 PM

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#61 Guest_centrarchid_*

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Posted 20 May 2008 - 06:57 PM

What's a Hand Paint bluegill?

A "type" of bluegill endemic to the lower Apalachicola /FlintRiver systemes of Florida and Georgia.

Photo of male nest building morph. Notice black blothes. Bars and chest almost red. Under natural lighting backgrowd appears metallic to blue. This animal not that spectacular and frightened to boot.

DSC_0473.JPG 713.74KB 4 downloads

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#62 Guest_fundulus_*

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Posted 20 May 2008 - 07:03 PM

That's a striking bluegill. I've heard of hand paints, but never seen a picture of one. If you had shown me that picture without telling me in advance what it was I might have said bluegill, based on body shape, barring and the dorsal spot.

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#63 Guest_butch_*

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Posted 20 May 2008 - 08:41 PM

For last time, this blue sunfish are 100% pure washed out bluegill. I really doubt that there are blackspotted sunfish in Ohio, not even that "invasive" idea as this sunfish are not very important sportfish so why Ohio should import them for fishing? They are neither popular baitfish, nor aquarium purposes. Redear are different matter as they are imported for fisheries in Ohio because they grew big and very tasty. Blackspotted sunfish aint that big sunfish. For last time I DO NOT see any blackspotted's marks on this blue sunfish. I can't see speckles on its body, marks on its face, white edges on the fins and where is red spot on its ear? So how can this sunfish be blackspotted?

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#64 Guest_itsme_*

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Posted 20 May 2008 - 09:03 PM

A "type" of bluegill endemic to the lower Apalachicola /FlintRiver systemes of Florida and Georgia.
Photo of male nest building morph. Notice black blothes. Bars and chest almost red. Under natural lighting backgrowd appears metallic to blue. This animal not that spectacular and frightened to boot.

Why are they called Hand Paint? Does that refer to the irregular black blotches? I've never heard the phrase Hand Paint in any context, let alone with fishes. Thanks for the education and photo.

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#65 Guest_jkurtz7_*

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Posted 20 May 2008 - 09:16 PM

This logic doesn't work: no blackspotted sunfish in OH because they are not native. Redears are in OH but not native. So when the first Redears were found the same could have been said at that time. "There are no Redears in Ohio and there never were." That 's where this thread is going the possibility of introduced Blackspotted sunfish in Ohio. But I agree they are likely bluegill though I can see how the idea of blackspotted came up.

Redears were introduced to certain waters in Ohio because they get BIG and anglers like BIG fish. I doubt that you would find very many anglers in the state of Ohio that would beg to get Blackspotted sunnies introduced here, they simply do not get big enough to have anyone but folks like us here on this forum to even care about them. Most anglers in this state don't care about Longears, because they don't get big. My point is here that redears were brought here for angling, blackspotted would never be introduced here for that.
I'm no expert, but I have been pursuing sunfish most of my life. I have also been keeping sunnies for around 8 years. My opinion is that Blackspotted sunnies were not introduced here. There is no documented case of them being here. If they were here, and I knew about it, then they would be on my list of fish to pursue with the fly rod.

Jeremy

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#66 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 20 May 2008 - 09:45 PM

To tell the truth, I was hoping that these fish would be somehow unique in a good way, like a color morph but, that may not be the case.

To address this, why don't you just keep one in a spare tank for a while, clean water, and good food... if it changes color, then the "washed out" theory will be proven... if it stays pale blue even with good conditions, you might have a color morph on your hands. Would be a simple experiment, and fun too.

Ignoring all the other discussion, a color morph seems at least possible, you see it all the time in reptiles and bird in the pet trade.

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

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#67 Guest_jkurtz7_*

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Posted 20 May 2008 - 09:50 PM

To address this, why don't you just keep one in a spare tank for a while, clean water, and good food... if it changes color, then the "washed out" theory will be proven... if it stays pale blue even with good conditions, you might have a color morph on your hands. Would be a simple experiment, and fun too.

Ignoring all the other discussion, a color morph seems at least possible, you see it all the time in reptiles and bird in the pet trade.

Good idea, I will have to get a second tank and try it out. I'd rather do this than kill one of these fish.

Jeremy

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#68 Guest_centrarchid_*

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 08:01 AM

Redears were introduced to certain waters in Ohio because they get BIG and anglers like BIG fish. I doubt that you would find very many anglers in the state of Ohio that would beg to get Blackspotted sunnies introduced here, they simply do not get big enough to have anyone but folks like us here on this forum to even care about them. Most anglers in this state don't care about Longears, because they don't get big. My point is here that redears were brought here for angling, blackspotted would never be introduced here for that.
I'm no expert, but I have been pursuing sunfish most of my life. I have also been keeping sunnies for around 8 years. My opinion is that Blackspotted sunnies were not introduced here. There is no documented case of them being here. If they were here, and I knew about it, then they would be on my list of fish to pursue with the fly rod.

Jeremy

Sometimes the introductions are not intentional. My farm now has green tree frogs, lots of them. They are not big enough to interest me a s food yet I still have them. They came in along as tadpoles with a shipment of hybrid striped bass from another farm 300 miles away. This also happens in the bait and feeder fish trades as many here will likey provide evidence for. I have also had Iowa darters in my Illinois farm ponds that came from Iowa but those failed to establish.

Have you ever been to the canals in Miami FLorida? Lots of critters normally occuring on other continents ply those waters.

The introduction also does not require a large number of fish associated with a sanctioned effort by parties interested in fisheries enhancement (usually government) like you emply with redear. I can take a single breeding pair fish place them into a pond and convert them into 2,000 fingerlings for lets say pirate perch or 10,000 for a sunnies (both based on experience) and have them to 3" by the following fall, pull the standpipe and boom-baby, the stream below my pond is stocked with a potentially viable breeding population for the following spring. Sometimes the breeding pair need only find each other in the stream or lake for same although less predictable results.

By the way, I am not 100% certain the blue fish you photographed are not bluegill, but I think my guess is educated. It is my business to be familiar with bluegill and related species. I have (as living examples) at this time ranging in total length from 3" to 6" about 20 blackspotted sunfish, > 200 redspotted sunfish and even a few from the integrade zone of AL and FL. I see them every day. I also have all the sunfishes native to Ohio including a few others even though only the pumpkinseeds are from your area (pumpkinseed grandparents from your home county).

Range maps are not the final word on extant and future ranges of any species. They (species) can move or be moved. Such events can only be detected and used to update range maps if such changes are recognized as being possible.

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#69 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 21 May 2008 - 08:08 AM

Good idea, I will have to get a second tank and try it out. I'd rather do this than kill one of these fish.

Jeremy

If you do this, you should keep good records and really make this an experiment. Document the frequency, quantity and type of food offerend (and to prove your point I suggest lots of natural foods and lots of filtration to counter the over feeding that you should be doing to prove the point one way or the other). You should also consider something like photos taken every day at about the same time of day (with the little date and time stamp that digital cameras have these days... obviously not real proof as photos can be "shopped" but good documentation never the less).

This would make a great AC atricle...

Edited by Michael Wolfe, 21 May 2008 - 08:09 AM.

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

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#70 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 21 May 2008 - 08:12 AM

If you do this, you should keep good records and really make this an experiment. Document the frequency, quantity and type of food offerend (and to prove your point I suggest lots of natural foods and lots of filtration to counter the over feeding that you should be doing to prove the point one way or the other). You should also consider something like photos taken every day at about the same time of day (with the little date and time stamp that digital cameras have these days... obviously not real proof as photos can be "shopped" but good documentation never the less).

This would make a great AC atricle...

In fact looking at it and thinking about it some more...I have a 55 gallon tank... mail me a few smallers ones... I'll do it for you.

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

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#71 Guest_centrarchid_*

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 08:28 AM

In fact looking at it and thinking about it some more...I have a 55 gallon tank... mail me a few smallers ones... I'll do it for you.

A standardized background would also be helpfull. Can you make certain some similar sized nominal bluegill from the same site are included?

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#72 Guest_centrarchid_*

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 08:31 AM

If coloration evidence does not clear things up, then sacrificing a couple questionable fish may still be required for gill rakers.

Edited by centrarchid, 21 May 2008 - 08:32 AM.

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#73 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 21 May 2008 - 08:58 AM

If coloration evidence does not clear things up, then sacrificing a couple questionable fish may still be required for gill rakers.

I wouldn't have a problem with that and would appreciate some expert assistance in the process... not to be too graphic, but I have no problem "cleanin' fish" and while this is obviously different, it is will within my skill set... and I would be willing to photo document that process as well... and write it all up in the AC...

I'm starting to get very interested in this project... send me the fish! :biggrin:

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

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#74 Guest_centrarchid_*

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 09:15 AM

I wouldn't have a problem with that and would appreciate some expert assistance in the process... not to be too graphic, but I have no problem "cleanin' fish" and while this is obviously different, it is will within my skill set... and I would be willing to photo document that process as well... and write it all up in the AC...

I'm starting to get very interested in this project... send me the fish!

Fish of known ID from other sources should be included. Species that blue fish could be.

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#75 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 21 May 2008 - 12:08 PM

Fish of known ID from other sources should be included. Species that blue fish could be.

Do you think that is really necessary? I mean it sort of depends on the question we are asking doesn't it?

If I ask... what is this fish? Then I would think the most direct approach would be to evaluate gill rakers. But if we did that... and it turned out to be a bluegill... that wouldn't address the original posters real question... which I thought was something more like... hey, is this a funky blue morph bluegill? All we would have is a confirmed dead bluegill. If I simply take the fish and feed it well in clean water conditions, we could see if the fish changes coloration. An albino or luetenistic (sp?) fish would not change, a sick fish or stressed fish would change colors as is recovered. There could of course be other possibiities/complexitites, but the most likely would be blue morph or stressed.

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

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#76 Guest_centrarchid_*

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 12:38 PM

Do you think that is really necessary? I mean it sort of depends on the question we are asking doesn't it?

If I ask... what is this fish? Then I would think the most direct approach would be to evaluate gill rakers. But if we did that... and it turned out to be a bluegill... that wouldn't address the original posters real question... which I thought was something more like... hey, is this a funky blue morph bluegill? All we would have is a confirmed dead bluegill. If I simply take the fish and feed it well in clean water conditions, we could see if the fish changes coloration. An albino or luetenistic (sp?) fish would not change, a sick fish or stressed fish would change colors as is recovered. There could of course be other possibiities/complexitites, but the most likely would be blue morph or stressed.

Regardless of taxon, coloration is a bit off from what I consider typical for any of the species considered to be possible. Discoloration may be a function of parasite load which may not be resolved in the time likely to provided in tanks.

If concern about preservation of unique morph is high, then breed them. May breed true.

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#77 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 21 May 2008 - 12:45 PM

Regardless of taxon, coloration is a bit off from what I consider typical for any of the species considered to be possible. Discoloration may be a function of parasite load which may not be resolved in the time likely to provided in tanks.
If concern about preservation of unique morph is high, then breed them. May breed true.

Agreed. Now we just need to do the work!

So whatta say jkurtz7? You want to do this, or you want to send me a few fish?

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

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#78 Guest_jkurtz7_*

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 04:49 PM

Agreed. Now we just need to do the work!

So whatta say jkurtz7? You want to do this, or you want to send me a few fish?

Hmmm. Well I'm not going to ship live fish all over the country, so I guess if I'm going to be doing an experiment with one of the blue fish then. I'm going to have to get another setup. That may take some time, as the finances here at home are limited right now. I also have to catch another blue fish, and when that may happen, no one knows.

Jeremy

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#79 Guest_keepnatives_*

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 05:00 PM

Redears were introduced to certain waters in Ohio because they get BIG and anglers like BIG fish. I doubt that you would find very many anglers in the state of Ohio that would beg to get Blackspotted sunnies introduced here, they simply do not get big enough to have anyone but folks like us here on this forum to even care about them. Most anglers in this state don't care about Longears, because they don't get big. My point is here that redears were brought here for angling, blackspotted would never be introduced here for that.
I'm no expert, but I have been pursuing sunfish most of my life. I have also been keeping sunnies for around 8 years. My opinion is that Blackspotted sunnies were not introduced here. There is no documented case of them being here. If they were here, and I knew about it, then they would be on my list of fish to pursue with the fly rod.

Jeremy

Yeah, that would be and is my "opinion" as well. But the possibility otherwise is a great excuse to do more fishing.

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#80 Guest_jase_*

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 07:47 PM

Hmmm. Well I'm not going to ship live fish all over the country, so I guess if I'm going to be doing an experiment with one of the blue fish then. I'm going to have to get another setup. That may take some time, as the finances here at home are limited right now.

I guarantee you can find someone who will cover the cost of shipping to send them a couple fish. Anyone?